[Flexmoney]

In another thread...

Flexmony:

Easy. In thoery.

Make vision you shooting priority, not speed.

(Harder in reality.)


fomeister:

Priority One: Vision.

Is that also what is referred to as visual patience, or is that something else altogether?

[spook]

Quote

Priority One: Vision.

Is that also what is referred to as visual patience, or is that something else altogether?

I think that a focus on vision will lead to visual patience. It's the same thing.

The term "visual patience" started a life of it's own on these forums. It started out as a phrase to remind people that you have to see what you need to see to break the shot. Especially when you need to see the sights. It started as a reminder. To remind the shooter to see, instead of shooting without seeing anything. It's nothing more than that.

[Flexmoney]

This is one we'd likely be best served by having BE go over it. Getting it from me might be like getting surgery from a butcher.

here goes...

I would seperate making vision a priority, from visual patience.

One (priority) is more of a state of mind...of increased awareness. The other (patience) is...what I would call...and application within that awareness.

I might be seeing well...but, I still might lack the visual patience to let the gun come onto the target (usually the Alpha is the target)...so, I might let loose a Delta. (this assumes that my "target"...in my mind...was truely the Alpha.)

Even that (Delta hit) might be a subset of something else. Of not defining what the true target ought to be. I might have trained my subconscious to "shoot brown", instead of shooting the Alpha.

I would say that I am dealing with three different things (just in this discussion).

1. Having the proper target defined in my mind.
2. Having the patience to fire when the gun is on that target (not before...or, after).
3. Being in a mindset that promotes collecting this information.

[Loves2Shoot]

Well said.

[fomeister]

How does that apply between shots on the same target?

I am guessing that you break the shot, tracking the sight picture as it returns to the A zone and break the next shot. (trying not to drag my problem into this thread) This is done at different speeds depending on your distance from the A zone, or your willingness to risk C hits on...let's say...a drop turner.

If your stage is a popper activating a turner(disappearing) and a full target between them, then one might attempt the activator, then the full target, then the turner. I have said that the sport sometimes rewards speed and risk far too much, but understand that should not be part of training to improve.

The complex use of multiple skills is where I get a little confused. Figuring out that two fast hits anywhere on a disappearing target are usually sufficient, how do I engage these using patience yet not miss the opportunity to gain time? Most of the time when I go for the conservative no-crash approach, I get beat by fast shooters of less skill. Call that luck or not, if it repeatedly happens, then it is a reality we have to deal with. That my be representative of arrays on many stages at say, Nationals.

Is there a time where you shift gears away from patience for a moment?

[mcoliver]

Even with static targets, the gun/hand is still moving after recoil and will never be still. How the gun returns and how consistently it returns would depend on what you have observed in your practice sessions.

I, for one, cannot depend solely on my body to accurately point the gun after every shot except when I'm just standing still (but that seldom happens in a match). That's why I always would benefit from having a visual verification that the gun was at least pointed on the A-zone. And I think we all would benefit from such feedback. The problem is...well, heck, we all know what our problem is.

[fomeister]

mcoliver, on Nov 25 2004, 02:32 AM, said:

The problem is...well, heck, we all know what our problem is.

I especially like that line.

[Flexmoney]

Quote

Is there a time where you shift gears away from patience for a moment?

I think you are asking about speed again?

Go with what works for you. For me, I get the best scores with vision.

Quote

If your stage is a popper activating a turner(disappearing) and a full target between them, then one might attempt the activator, then the full target, then the turner. I have said that the sport sometimes rewards speed and risk far too much, but understand that should not be part of training to improve.

I think you are on a speed mindset here....'do I have enough time to take the static'...

Quote

Most of the time when I go for the conservative no-crash approach, I get beat by fast shooters of less skill.

I don't know about you...with me, taking a "conservative no-crash approach", is often another level of focusing on speed. Instead of going fast, I have decided to go slow(er).


1. Vision (let the front sight be your speedometer). Vision allows me to "just shoot"...that is where the majic happens for me.

2. Consevative. This is still a focus on speed. It is kinda like forcing the vision. Slower. But, often works out fine. Beats sinking the ship.

3. Speed. Hero or Zero. This can work...unless you are up against a shooter of similar skill that is doing either of the two above with regularity.

[Sam]

One key to this riddle is to learn what too much speed feels and looks like. That's implied in what Flex is saying about allowing the vision to fire the shot.

Most of the trouble comes from trying to shave down the shot to shot splits. A properly placed shot takes as long as it takes. Shave time in transitions and in movement.

I really appreciated something Tightloop posted the other day about the big difference in .17 splits and .20 splits and the way they they look and feel when you're shooting them. At .20 my confidence level on calling the shot is at least 85%. At .17..... crap, it probably drops to probably 50% or less. So, I can save .03 on a split and toss out a good shot call. (which is everything) Or I can look to save that .03 somewhere that has more opportunity for saving. Like in gross motor skill operations such as entering/leaving, making wide transitions, ect. It's mostly the trigger finger and the eyeball on splits. Not much opportunity to save time, but a huge opportunity to lose points.

[fomeister]

You guys keep reminding me please! I think I do the right thing most of the time, seeing the sights, calling the shots, taking the sure movements, squaring up to the targets, etc. BUT, I do take risks too, shooting the scenario I described the fastest possible way, and it hasn't bitten me, at least not within recent memory. Going lone-wolf on 20-21 stages with a backup plan to reload also happens with great frequency.

My worst skill by far is the transition, which I totally don't understand. Naturally using two eyes open for most of my life, being able to shift focus rapidly, and trying not to sweep the distance between, I cannot figure out why my transitions are so slow. Last week on an actual stage .13split, .26transition, .13split, .30transition, .13split-at arms length accross a table shoulder to shoulder.

So what to do when my fundamentals are good, but I still feel the need to push myself (read take risks)? Why is this? When I do the right thing I see the rewards. Why do I feel slow? The fast guys who get me on a stage, seldom get me on a match. But I still feel slow. A shooting therapist would make a mint on me.

[Ron Ankeny]

I learned about visual patience the hard way. I started shooting Production.

[mcoliver]

fomeister, on Nov 27 2004, 07:33 AM, said:

I cannot figure out why my transitions are so slow. Last week on an actual stage .13split, .26transition, .13split, .30transition, .13split-at arms length accross a table shoulder to shoulder.

Increase your spilt times, that way your transitions don't seem too far away.

One thing I've noticed people shooting fast splits is that after their second shot, their gun seems to hover on target then they transition. Maybe you're doing the same? If you think you are, try setting up a transition practice (I think I got this from flex in one of those plate rack shooting threads):

1. Start with just two targets.
2. Fire one shot on one target and get the gun moving while it's still recoiling.
3. Familiarize that feeling of transitioning while the gun is still moving.
4. Try shooting doubles and getting that similar feeling on the second shot.
5. Be careful about trying to move the gun the moment it fires. You must see the sight lift and call the shot before you move the gun.

HTH.

[fomeister]

Thanks Mcoliver!

[Eye Cutter]

Ron Ankeny, on Nov 27 2004, 09:28 AM, said:

I learned about visual patience the hard way. I started shooting Production.

yeah, rock on!!! i second that!

[Pat Harrison]

I'm gonna add to this thread, but I gotta get my thoughts in order.
For now, try thinking of replacing "visual patience" with "Visual Decisions"
Everyone assumes that visual patience means to slow down, it doesn't. It merely means letting your vision dictate the release of the shot with an acceptable sight picture. This may even show you that you can go FASTER. I noticed this particularily on stage 4 at the Area 2 match. For an instant the little voice in my head told me that I might be shooting a bit fast, but I didn't alter my pace, if my vision was showing me that I could shoot at that speed, then so be it. For the record I placed 13th on that stage.
Visually decide what is acceptable AS you shoot. Before you shoot you can plan what you want to see and what is an acceptable shot, but once you start to shoot the stage you must turn over control to what you see. This is not to be confused with making an concious decision on each shot as to what is good and what isn't. It is performed within your awareness of what is happening as you shoot and directed by your plan beforehand as to what is acceptable. It just means your vision will decide whan to break the shot slower or FASTER if need be.

[Sam]

Nice, Pat!

[Flexmoney]

Very nice.

[Pat Harrison]

Thanks

[Ron Ankeny]

Great thread. Kind of like driving a car isn't it Pat?

[Pat Harrison]

Kinda, yes

[benos]

Lots of good stuff in this thread!

Seldom is it beneficial to concern yourself with technique(s) during a match. So let's just talk about how what you actually see affects your match performance.

IPSC challenges our ability to balance speed AND accuracy, (or I could have said accuracy AND speed), and a good score (hit factor) is the result. Let's leave accuracy as a given (since we all know you can't miss fast enough to win), and think about just what is speed? Reduced to the root, speed means getting each hit as quickly as possible. Two things are going on there... You gotta have the hit, and you gotta get the next hit quickly.

Let's discard the usual IPSC concept of "transition speed" and instead think of every shot as a "transition" - whether target to target or on the same target. Now how could you possibly hope to physically, mentally, and visually quickly move/drive the gun to the next shot if you don't know fairly precisely where the last shot went? Sure, you can watch a “habit-machine crankmaster” blaze away on some close targets, and it doesn't really look they knew where each shot went. But that's because they've practiced long enough and their inherent and trained gun handling skills allow them to get away with it. Most of the time anyway. You won't see the match winner doing that however; he leaves behind a trail of known holes, string after string, stage after stage, match after match.

So calling each shot well enough to know whether or not the shot was acceptable at the instant it fired is the secret to both speed and accuracy, and, shooting to your capacity. Speed, because you won't move forward decisively unless you left with certainty. And accuracy, because hoping your shots were there doesn't win matches.

The above are just different ways explaining the importance of maintaining a visual emphasis. Winning IPSC shooting is all about vision - you must train it, plan it, and do it.

The term visual patience came to me on the drive home from a match years ago. For whatever reason, I allowed the mental time necessary to visually finish each shot. And of course shot a great match, which was characterized by a sense of effortlessness.

Visual patience refers to a very specific realm within the entire range of what you see while shooting. Visual patience means seeing, or maybe better - allowing yourself to see continuously, right through the “end of a shot” and on to the beginning of the next. It means visually “finishing the shot.” Although no shot really begins or ends.

The subtle application of finishing the shot can be tricky, however. On a tough shot, this requires not rushing enough so you calmly see the front sight lifting out of the rear notch. On an “easier” shot, like when you’re cranking away focused on the target(s) - calling or finishing the shot will require mentally acknowledging an acceptable blurred sight picture for each shot. Often, a shot is lost over the shoulder because we did not do that.

Applying visual patience (calling the shot) became massively important to me after I realized that it was the most erroded skill - of all the physical and mental skills we practice – in competition.

There is no end or beginning when you see everything.

[Jasonub]

as usual Brian explained everything perfectly


me shooting ipsc is simple, just see what you need to see and move on. Simple, true but difficult to do

[Flexmoney]

I've been debating on starting another thread on something that has been in my head recently..but it sure fits here with these other (great) post.

We talk about seeing what you need to see.

Often, we say/hear seeing what you need to see...to make the shot.

I think that last part might be a bit limiting...in that it might imply that our work is done. And, it might be a factor in some of our slower performances...or those misses that shooters tend to have (...at the end of an array...before a reload...at the end of a stage...etc)

Perhaps...we might think in terms of seeing what we need to see to call the shot?

[Pierruiggi]

Well, for me, if I don't call a shot, the shot isn't made.
That means, sure, the bullet left the barrel and hit something; wether that something is an A, C, D or Mike, I don't know and therefore that situation creates doubt in my mind. Doubt leads to hesitation and that leads to a bad performance on the rest of the stage, so I know I'll lose less time correcting that shot (by firing a new, called shot) than letting it be a hoper and run the rest of the stage in fear that THAT shot may or may not have been a mike; and therefore not running the stage in my full potential.

In simpler words: I've always interpreted that "see what you need to see to make the shot" means "see what YOU need to see to call the shot". And I emphasized the "YOU" because the minimum amount of data that I need to know the shot is where it needs to be, will be different than the amounts other people will need.

[Ron Ankeny]

I visited with Flex off forum about his notion of "see what you need to see to call the shot". I think the idea has a lot of merit.