47 replies to this topic

[AustinT]

So many of you have missed the point. If you shoot in the 3gn series. You already are in a classification system. The problem is it is on the honor system and a lot of you gamers lack honor. Look at the amateur standings for this season and you will see for yourself. Some of those guys would have made the shoot off to go pro if they had just checked the semi pro box.

Wow, we managed to squeeze both 'gamers' and 'honor' in that one. The #2 Amateur is 14 years old. The first time I ever heard his name was when he was on my squad at LaRue this year. He is an exceptionally talented shooter, he does not 'lack honor'. I think it is reasonable for a shooter of his age to enroll in the amateur series for his first 3GN season. I do not expect that he will next year.

Your statements are not helping your argument.

[MarkCO]

We still don't need classifications!

Just my opinion, but 3Gunners are at the top of the class when it come to honor and integrity. If you shoot 3Gun, you know. If you don't and think otherwise, 3Gun is probably not the sport for you.

[DaG]

Can I ask why are classifications in 3G a bad thing? Would classifications be a detriment to the sport or is it something else? Are there specific reasons? I ask because I really don't see what the issue is. Thanks for any help.

[Bryan 45]

DaG, in my opinion it's just another way to separate and divide the sport. Why do we need classifications? Outlaw 3 gun has grown in so many different directions. There is not an accurate way to classify shooters when the matches are so different. A guy who shoots 85% of the winner at SMM3G is not the same shooter as the guy who shoots 85% of the winner at Ironman or Blue Ridge. The matches are just too far different. What works for USPSA does not work for 3 gun.

What is gained by labeling someone a "C" class shooter? The only reason I can see is to award some type of "high mediocre" award. Not knocking any skill level of shooter, because the highest USPSA classification I hold is a B. And I'll be the first to tell you I am certainly a mediocre USPSA shooter, at best.

[Stlhead]

So many of you have missed the point. If you shoot in the 3gn series. You already are in a classification system. The problem is it is on the honor system and a lot of you gamers lack honor. Look at the amateur standings for this season and you will see for yourself. Some of those guys would have made the shoot off to go pro if they had just checked the semi pro box.

This is a game we play, so by definition, if you participate then you are a gamer. Your claim that a lot of "Gamers" lack honor would seem to indicate that you do not have a very high opinion of those that participate in the sport that we are talking about. If that is the case then why are you even taking the time to post? Do you even shoot 3 gun? If so why? I am not a 3gn guy, but to belittle those that chose to participate (or the division they have decided to play in) speaks volumes of your "Honor".

I am a gamer and proud of it. If you think that means I lack honor then that is your option, but you statement has definitely left me with a strong opinion of your character.

[El Guapo]

Again some of you have missed the point. I don't think gamer is a dirty word, I too am a gamer. I used the word honor because I was talking about the honor system we are using to separate pros, semi-pros, and ams. I am not attempting offend anyone. I'm just trying to point out that the current way leaves something to be desired. So lets stop being a bunch of thin skinned schoolgirls and engage in a constructive dialog. 😀

[Glock3422]

3 gun doesn't need classifications, presidents, or mayors.

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't need a TV show either. There is a show because 3 gun is an interesting and growing form of competition. Not the reverse.

When the network doesn't need or want the programming, or the sponsorship goes away, so will the show. 3 gun will be doing just fine.

Without the show, there will be no need for divisions. Without divisions, there will be no need for classifications.

I shoot 3 gun because it is fun, I like to challenge myself, shoot with my friends, and try to improve. I know where I stand and I don't need to pay someone to quantify it.

[Jadeslade]

3 gun doesn't need classifications, presidents, or mayors.

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't need a TV show either. There is a show because 3 gun is an interesting and growing form of competition. Not the reverse.

When the network doesn't need or want the programming, or the sponsorship goes away, so will the show. 3 gun will be doing just fine.

Without the show, there will be no need for divisions. Without divisions, there will be no need for classifications.

I shoot 3 gun because it is fun, I like to challenge myself, shoot with my friends, and try to improve. I know where I stand and I don't need to pay someone to quantify it.

This is well said. 3GN is a TV show. I don't watch TV much. I have many friends in the 3GN Pro Series, and actually I am a Semi-Pro member. Not doing very well, but I really like the high speed matches with the red targets, so if I can get my body to work right, I will be able to shoot those matches when I qualify. But I am under no illusion that 3GN will last as a TV show. The high speed format may continue to exist at an event or club. I like shooting 3 Gun matches, period. They are fun! Yes, we like competition, but really you're competing with yourself to do the best you can. No need for classifications.

[steel1212]

FYI our local 3gun matches have drastically increases because of the show.

[Jadeslade]

Corey, I appreciate your contributions to the sport and this forum. Not sure what your comment was about, but I think this thread is about 3 gun classifications. DVC

[benjamin]

Classification is not for the people that currently shoot 3gun, but to grow the sport.. so classification is (more so) for people thinking about shooting... The avid 3gunner will shoot regradless, but one of the appeals of USPSA is that people have a goal to keep striving for, i mean when we have a "classifier" match EVERYONE shows up. Numerous video game studios (zynga, COD series, world of warcraft) have either full time psychologists on staff or have studies done, specifically on this subject. What they have learned is that to keep the average person involved there needs to be another "goal" to accomplish.. So in the same way people strive get to the next level in WOW or COD in video games, in the real game of shooting people like to strive for the next goal. I don't think classification is something current 3gunners (i include myself, i could care less about classification) really need or want, but i do think that it would increase attendance and interest at local matches and i think studies show this...

Edited by benjamin, 12 December 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[MarkCO]

If you want a goal, that is easy and better done without classifications.

My first RM3G match, I shot 38% of the match winner. I added 4 to 7% every year. Sure, Horner is a moving target, but over 6 years, I improved more than he did. That is my own personal sense of accomplishment. Any arbitrary classification is worth far less than that.

But, I would love to see the studies you have referenced.

[benjamin]

once again Mark you are a driven avid 3gunner, not the "general population". Just look at local matches, we have matches that are not IDPA or USPSA sanctioned, even though the stages are similar, rules similar, etc.. they are only about 1/4 attendance.. people are constantly posting about their classifications, in fact you want to see people jump all over a match director, just have them not turn in the 1 stage classifier on time!! i have seen it and it is not pretty, so it must mean something..

The first two studies are a perfect example it talks about the "achievements" that Xbox implemented that have been a HUGE success and increased people participating in games.. people have bought games just to get the achievements which raise their gamer score (once again perfect comparison to shooting). Be sure to read the second one that shows that the game "reviews better, sales more and is more profitable". Does that mean no one would have bought the game, of course not, but it means it does make a difference.. I am not saying 3gun has to have classification to survive, but it would help... So you are saying that the 3gun nation rankings have had no effect on attendance and participation? Because you are right everyone could just do their own math, but NUMEROUS people have talked about attending matches they normally wouldn't have so they can get their 3gun nation ranking.. once again same concept having a profound effect...

I chose not to post the numerous studies that show the dopemine release that is activated when accomplishing and achieving a goal (figured that was common enough knowledge). Every company, rehab, sport, etc.. has specific goals they set, because IT IS EFFECTIVE. The people posting on this forum are on the edge of the bell curve of shooting, of course they don't need a "classification" or anything else. But to use the people in this forum as a proper representation of the population is just bad science...

http://gamestudies.o...icles/jakobsson

http://www.gamefront...0-achievements/

http://www.psycholog...n-and-the-brain

http://www.psycholog...-accomplishment

http://www.psycholog...the-value-goals

Edited by benjamin, 12 December 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[1chota]

^{How about "SPONSORED" and " UNSPONSORED"? Fair enough? ( I am most definitely in the second of those two.)}

[benjamin]

so the 14th overall 3gunner (according to 3gun nation) is a "rookie".... referencing rustin..
http://3gunnation.com/the_series

http://3gunnation.co...in_bernskoetter

pretty good for an amateur


2011 3-Gun Nation Championship Final 8 Man Shoot-Off Finale
2011 Missouri State USPSA Multi-Gun Championship – 1st Tactical Optics
2011 Fallen Brethren 3-Gun Challenge – 2nd Tactical Optics
2011 Advanced Armament Corp/Tier 1 Group 3-Gun – 2nd Overall
2011 3-Gun Nation Shoot-Off at Ozark 3-Gun Championship - 2nd Overall
2011 Midwest 3-Gun Championship – 3rd Tactical Optics
2011 Ozark 3-Gun Championship – 4th Tactical Optics
2011 Blue Ridge Mountain 3-Gun Championship – 4th Tactical Optics
2011 3-Gun Nation Championship – 5th Overall
2011 Rocky Mountain 3-Gun – 5th Tactical Optic

Edited by benjamin, 12 December 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[MarkCO]

Points to Benjamin! Some of those articles make some valid points as well.

I see your point and now that I think about it, I do see some of that in my kids. I've always been one to set my own goals and then acheive or fail based on my own criteria. I think that comes with maturity and I am starting to see the shift in my kids as well, even in Xbox. I'll even check my goals against the top shooter by looking at their perfromance and seeing if they tanked a stage. The few times I beat James in a match or on a stage, I ask him how he shot or what he was doing...most times there is no reason to celebrate because he was testing something or had a malfunction. For instance, this year at RM3G, squadded with Miculek and Casanova (Division winners of the match), I beat them both on Stage 5, but they both caught an early morning upslope with shifting winds and had to chase rounds back and forth while I shot a touch earlier in still air. I had a good run, but realize conditions had an effect. I've set my goals for this winter, and next year based on my own personal analysis of my weaknesses, checked against the perceptions of those who know me, but I remain my harshest critic.

I just think the gaps in 3 Gun are too large for a classification system to be valid:

• We have a significantly lower number of shooters than USPSA
• The complexity and length of stages spreads out the competition
• The types of matches vary greatly
• Technology and techniques are changing rapidly

In all of the other shooting sports, and Xbox, the definition of success is more easily defined with a number. I can look at the individual scores in any other shooting discipline and determine if the shooter shot par, below par or exceptionally. That can not be done in 3Gun. If classiifications are adopted, the drive will be to dumb down the stages in order to make the classifications mean more. I want the target to be the top shooters, not the 50% shooter. I do honestly beleive the "Run heads up against the top" mentality of 3Gun is what drives people to this sport. I've dealt with phenominal pistol shooters who are scared, enthralled, curious etc. about the "all out" nature of 3Gun. That excitement, I think, will be diluted by a classification.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Brian Payne]

I can't really form an educated opinion on classifications. At first blush my answer would be "we don't need them", but I realize that the wants and needs that are filled by competing in 3-gun, may be different for me than they would be for some one else.

I help put on several local 3-gun matches and we really push for new shooters to come out and enjoy the sport. We have mentors for every new shooter to help walk them through their first one or two matches, and the more experienced shooters make no bones about volunteering any information that is requested by the newer shooters. I will admit that there has been an increase in new shooters that have commented about seeing the 3GunNation show and that leads them to look into the sport. These new shooters are very interested in their scores but they appear to be more interested in "not placing last" than worrying about being in first place in their division. They do use the scores as a way to compare how they are doing against the scores of more experienced shooters.

For various reasons (we all have different excuses for the same problem) my shooting practice revolves around about 1500 rds total practice ammo per year split between shotgun, rifle and pistol (not counting matches). To expect to be shooting in a 3GunNation shoot off is not a realistic goal for me at this time. I do a lot of "dry fire drills" and that helps me be at least a little competative on some of the stages. I had signed up for the semi-pro division this last year just so I could see how I would do. The placings I received are exactly what I deserved based on my ability. More important to me was having the chance to meet and shoot with some of the best shooters/people in the country. From National Champion 3-gun shooters to business owners that were just shooting for the fun of the match I never saw anyone that could be considered to lack any sort of honor or integrity. For me, this is what 3-gun shooting is all about. Without trying to degrade any other sort of shooting sports, 3-gun for me is purely about shooting. You could either shoot up to the ability of others in your division, or you couldn't. Equipment rules made sure everyone was starting out on basically an even footing and anyone that scored higher than anyone else was a better shooter on that given day. And they were a better shooter than I was because of their shooting background, or practice regiment, experience, or personal drive to succeed. It had nothing to do with being a gamer or lack of honor.

It seems that with classifications you will always have a certain percentage of the shooting population that will have ill will towards anyone that places higher than they do, with the thought that that person should be in a higher classification. I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, to come up with a classification system that everyone would be happy with. I know in USPSA I was classified as a "B" class shooter, but at normal matches I felt I was shooting more in "A" to low Master Class. I just had a difficult time shooting classifiers, where normal field courses were more in my comfort zone as a shooter.

For 3-gun classifications, if the classifiers were all like stages shot at 3GunNation matches, I would do very poorly as my shooting strengths don't revolve around short fast courses of fire. My classification would probably be very low. Then if you go to matches like BRM3G, Ozarks, RM3G, or Ironman where the stages are longer and pose different shooting challenges that require higher levels of energy and endurance, the outcome might be far different and this might lead someone to think "sandbagger" "gamer" etc.. We don't have that in our sport now and I would hate to see it come up in the future.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Great post Benjamin!

Classifications are important to new shooters that don't go to big matches. When I first got that big fat D card from USPSA I shot every match in the state every weekend until it said something else that I was proud of. I had a goal and I worked hard and shot more until i accomplished it. Goals are a good thing especially when you achieve them.

The idea of using major match performance as an indicator of performance is acceptable to a point. It just excludes those newbies. Would that encourage or entice newer shooters to attend bigger matches?

The one thing I don't enjoy is shooting USPSA classifiers at our club matches. They require a different skill set and mindset than the rest of the match. They just aren't fun to me. The most rewarding classification improvement I received was a bump from USPSA when I shot x% of the major match winner. I thought to myself, "I knew I was better than that stupid card. I could have won this thing if it wasn't for those 10 mikes and 7 no shoots." J/K

My point is there still isn't a good away to accomplish a classification that I have seen but they do serve a very good purpose. We need to ask ourselves what the goal of having a classification system is. Growing the sport? It should help but we have already had one poster say they quit a different sport because of classifications.

As far as the whole pro vs amateur thing. I'm still trying to figure out the point in having a match where you won't let the best shooters participate.

Are the pro shooters scaring off the newbies? I've heard it here a bunch in regards to the Rockcastle pro am that the am shooters want to shoot along side and against the best to see how they compare to the pros and to learn from the pros. I still watch Rustin and Pat and Bryan to try and learn from them to get better.

Are the pro shooters taking all the slots? Sponsors get fee slots but those dont all go to pro shooters. Lots of company reps use them too.

Do the stages have to be made to difficult for the AM in order to challenge the Pro? Simple male the stages easy and boring nobody will want to shoot.

If the pros are taking all the good prizes then go random draw. U will lose a lot of the pros that aren't close by because those prizes pay for travel etc. Simple fix there.

I'm still trying to figure out why you have to exclude anyone. If you want to give first time major match shooters a better opportunity at getting into the match give them the early registration opportunities that the veteran shooters sometimes get.

I have t found a match I didn't want to shoot some I just can't.

[benjamin]

I just think the gaps in 3 Gun are too large for a classification system to be valid:

• We have a significantly lower number of shooters than USPSA
• The complexity and length of stages spreads out the competition
• The types of matches vary greatly
• Technology and techniques are changing rapidly

Those are valid points.. i pretty much agree with you on all of those... Just like Jesse said the current system excludes newbies which hinders the sport a little.. Just so you know how much we agree, i wasn't arguing that a classification system is "feasible", i was arguing that the idea that it wouldn't help or bring more attendance isn't true... so the funny thing is i don't even really like the USPSA classifers (i mean when else in a match do you shoot weak hand only head shots from a seated position?? that is what i did at the last classifier!!) and don't have the perfect solution for 3gun.. so basically i am the guy that points out the problem but doesn't have a solution...

also Mark i really don't know what to do, did we just disagree on something over the internet, talk about it logically and come to an agreement without insulting eachother, passive aggressive statements, etc.. this is soo new to me.. will you at least call me a sheeple or something insulting? i just never experience a mature conversation over the internet before

[MarkCO]

also Mark i really don't know what to do, did we just disagree on something over the internet, talk about it logically and come to an agreement without insulting eachother, passive aggressive statements, etc.. this is soo new to me.. will you at least call me a sheeple or something insulting? i just never experience a mature conversation over the internet before

If we shoot at a match together, I am sure we can find something to insult each other with. It's more fun in person anyway.

[benjamin]

also Mark i really don't know what to do, did we just disagree on something over the internet, talk about it logically and come to an agreement without insulting eachother, passive aggressive statements, etc.. this is soo new to me.. will you at least call me a sheeple or something insulting? i just never experience a mature conversation over the internet before

If we shoot at a match together, I am sure we can find something to insult each other with. It's more fun in person anyway.

sounds good!

[steel1212]

Corey, I appreciate your contributions to the sport and this forum. Not sure what your comment was about, but I think this thread is about 3 gun classifications. DVC

The post above that you made about the TV show not really being a big contributor, and had nothing to do with classifications either lol. I disagree, I think its a huge contributor in some areas. 3gun was there before the show and will be there if the show goes away but the show is helping the sport.

[Blaise1]

Since this thread started about whether or not a classification system is needed in 3gun my answer to that is, not really. Not from a new shooters stand point. Like Mr. Payne said most of us are just concerned with finishing the match and not coming in last until we get some experience. We come to shoot for different reasons the first time but if we stay in the game it's to get better and have FUN. It's not hard to figure out after a few matches where you "rank" next to "Bob" and "Fred". From there it's our choice to go to a major and learn about the "Horner Factor" first hand, lol.
I understand the "want" to make a match where the bottom 200 get a better prize. Make it a random draw then and we just shoot to shoot. No pressure, just a day at the range. If people want to start excluding shooters because they are better and don't want to get beat that's B.S. This game is the best thing my family and I have ever found. We have only been competing less than a year and it's had it's up's and down's but one thing it teaches and reinforces is that nothing in life is free, it takes work and dedication. The prize table should reflect it or just give out door prizes.
If you want to draw more newcomers in why not start at the local level. Get a sponsor like Tarheel has and give something away every month.
When the new folks do show up with their M4 and aimpoint make their prize table appropriate. A 75% finish overall shouldn't walk away with less than a 55% finisher did just because they chose to shoot a different division.

These are all just my stupid opinions and I'm just a guy with a 3gun family. We will keep going to as many majors as we can and we'll be happy. If we can't win something we need or something to help us out in some way that's alright, I'm sure we'll learn something and have a ton of laughs sooner or later.