47 replies to this topic

[dcloudy777]

Okay, Ken's Amateur-Only match is spurring some discussion about what's a pro, what's an amateur, etc. I think I suggested something like this years ago, but I'm gonna throw it out there again.

Make a list of major/semi-major matches that are "qualifying events" for a classification system. Since I originally pitched this idea, 3GN has come along with their list of matches and divisions, which is an excellent reference point.

Track a competitor's finishing percentage (in his/her division) in these matches, the best three (or four, five?) scores are averaged to get a rating.

Master : 100 - 90

A class: 90 - 70

B class : 70 - 50

C class: 50 or below

These are quick and dirty numbers, might need tweaking. Ken could limit his match to B-C shooters only, or A-B-C shooters only, or whatever, but at least you would know black and white if you belonged there.

In order for a competitor's division score to be counted, at least 10 shooters must be in his/her division. If fewer than 10 shooters, than the shooter's percentage is divided by the overall match winner, instead of the division winner.

I don't know the first thing about maintaining a database, what would be involved in making something like this happen?

DanO

[El Guapo]

I like your idea Dan. I'm sure someone will be along to poop on it shortly.

[JFlowers]

Why go to all this trouble? Hasn't 3GN already done it for us? And not pooping on the idea, just thinking why recreate the wheel. Do we need that granularity?

PRO is pro. Everyone else is an AM. The case could be made that any SEMI that made the qualifier is defined as a PRO. No need to build and track more things, just let 3GN do it for you.

[El Guapo]

If you want to use 3gn standings then I think a case could be made for excluding anyone who amassed over 200 points in either semi pro or am this year.

[Mike P]

Go ahead and invent another wheel. The 3gn classification works for 3gn, the uspsa classification works for uspsa, and so forth. There is a substantial number of shooters that participate in major multi-gun events that choose to not be involved in either. If a classification is neccessary it seems that one maintained on universal and overall match results would make more sense. Even if the match was not affiliated with any other organization.
Of course if 3gn or uspsa were to track results from major matches that are not affiliated I suppose using one of their systems could work.

[abn-rgr]

Why go to all this trouble? Hasn't 3GN already done it for us? And not pooping on the idea, just thinking why recreate the wheel. Do we need that granularity?

PRO is pro. Everyone else is an AM. The case could be made that any SEMI that made the qualifier is defined as a PRO. No need to build and track more things, just let 3GN do it for you.

What about the guys who dont sign up for 3GN?? Where do you rate them??

[Corey]

With the soon-to-come "classifier" stages for the 3GN club series next year, maybe we'll be able to develop a system like USPSA. Everyone can shoot these publicly available stages and scores can be put into a system to see what percentage you finished.

Then we can have another sport where people complain about the classification system and sandbaggers.

[El Guapo]

There already are sandbaggers in the 3gn amateur series. Look at the top 3 or 4 finishers, they are at or over 240 points for three matches. That means they are shooting about 80% of the top shooter. That is not an amateur by any definition.

[Bryan 45]

classification? No thank you.

[MarkCO]

classification? No thank you.

Bryan for President! (or I agree)

[abn-rgr]

classification? No thank you.

This!!

[Corey]

In case, it wasn't clear, I'm against the classification as well. One more vote for Bryan for Prez!!


If you want to run an Amateur only match, go ahead, just lay out what your guidelines are for it. There was a post in the thread for the very first Pro-Am about this. Something to the effect of " You know which one you are and if you are an amatuer or not. If you have to ask, sign up for the Pro side". As a match director, just make a statement that if you have shot certain matches before or finished at a certain level, then you can't come to my match. Otherwise, just hold a 3gun match and let whoever wants to shoot come shoot. Thats why i like 3gun, get squaded with some of the best and shoot against them to see how you compare.

[Lead-Head]

I am against a classification system as well.

As for Mr Ray's presidential nomination, no need to see a birth cert. He shoots an camo M1A with a big american flag on the stock. That should be redblooded enough.

[Bryan 45]

Since this topic is related to the Am Chamionship match, I'll add this- I think it's an awesome idea, and if not for a full schedule for next season, I would consider it an honor to volunteer to work it.

The great thing about outlaw 3 gun is that each match director earns through expenditure of their blood and sweat the ability to run their match any way he or she sees fit. If he wants to have an Am match, let him review the apps and deny admission to any competitor he deems too PRO. Subjective? Certainly!

[abn-rgr]

Since this topic is related to the Am Chamionship match, I'll add this- I think it's an awesome idea, and if not for a full schedule for next season, I would consider it an honor to volunteer to work it.

The great thing about outlaw 3 gun is that each match director earns through expenditure of their blood and sweat the ability to run their match any way he or she sees fit. If he wants to have an Am match, let him review the apps and deny admission to any competitor he deems too PRO. Subjective? Certainly!

This is why we want you to be the unofficial Outlaw 3 Gun President!!!!! i couldnt agree with your second paragraph more!!!!!

[slowsure]

We already have a Mayor. Why not a President?

[Stlhead]

Do not step on the toes of El Hefe.

I think that if you want to build and maintain some sort of database then more power to you. If you want to use it to describe me then that is your right, but don't come around with your hand out for a couple of bucks all the time just to tell me that I can't shoot as fast as some other fellow (I am pointing my imaginary finger at Warren). I know how bad I suck, the last thing I need is another card that I have to pay for reminding me of the deafening sucking sound that is generated whenever I come to the line to shoot. The merciless heckling of my squad-mates is enough for me.

[mr50mag]

Random draw prize table = problem solved

[Alaskapopo]

Random draw prize table = problem solved

I think you should have a mix. Maybe a good prize or two handed out by random drawing but I think that good shooters should also be rewarded for the hard work and effort with prizes.
Pat

[urikagold]

classification? No thank you.

I agree. I left another shooting discipline because classification abuse was running rampant. I got tired of a bunch of grown men crying about who should or shouldn't be in their class. Obviously you are going to have the pro guys who are light years ahead of most of us, but for the rest of us I say run straight up. Place the top five or so and run the rest of the prize table random draw.

[dcloudy777]

I honestly don't have a strong opinion one way or another about whether there should be a classification system, But if there is one, it needs to be based purely on major match results, not "classifier stages". This would pretty much take sandbagging out of the equation, and that seems to be the biggest drawback to classification.
Honestly, I think it's the "Pro" and "Am" terminology that's throwing people, because it's pretty vague.

DanO

[steel1212]

Random draw prize table = problem solved

You wanna run heads up with no classification then earn your prize by order of finish.

I'm not very good at 3 gun but ill play by rules that the more experienced shooters want. However I think it's silly to say NO CLASSIFICATIONS then say or but let's have random draw so everybody can have a warm fuzzy. You wanna play heads up, cool. Play heads up and earn what you earn.

[caz41]

Random draw prize table = problem solved

You wanna run heads up with no classification then earn your prize by order of finish.

I'm not very good at 3 gun but ill play by rules that the more experienced shooters want. However I think it's silly to say NO CLASSIFICATIONS then say or but let's have random draw so everybody can have a warm fuzzy. You wanna play heads up, cool. Play heads up and earn what you earn.

Exactly. Give the fat kid a trophy at track and field day for finishing dead last, then take him out to McDonalds to celebrate his trophy.

[El Guapo]

So many of you have missed the point. If you shoot in the 3gn series. You already are in a classification system. The problem is it is on the honor system and a lot of you gamers lack honor. Look at the amateur standings for this season and you will see for yourself. Some of those guys would have made the shoot off to go pro if they had just checked the semi pro box.

[Lead-Head]

So many of you have missed the point. If you shoot in the 3gn series. You already are in a classification system. The problem is it is on the honor system and a lot of you gamers lack honor. Look at the amateur standings for this season and you will see for yourself. Some of those guys would have made the shoot off to go pro if they had just checked the semi pro box.

I don't known which is worse. Gaming the 3GN series, or or characterizing a group of folks you may not even know to be gamers that "lack honor". We take our honor pretty serious where I am from sir. So let me be the first to say...your statement are offensive and unfounded.