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How to run the Nats (discuss) - split


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#76 tulsashooter45

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

Hi,
I want to thank all those people involved in putting on the Area and National matches, THANK YOU! you gals and guys are doing the work 98% of us don't want to do or don't have the time to do it. And your spending way to much of your own money to do those mostly un-thanked jobs. Volunteering is one thing servitude is another and no compensation for your HARD work is unforgivable. If the 98% are not willing to work, than they should be willing to pay the way of those that are. I save all year to attend the Nationals it is a great match. If it where to cost another $100 I would not go out to dinner two more times during the year and pay it, no problem.
THANK YOU gals and guys again you do a great job! and I can't wait to shake your hands again and tell you that face to face! Because you make this sport FUN for me.

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Thank You John

#77 MarkCO

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

Thanks to the staff is deserved, and saying people can step up and volunteer is also a valid point, but saying nice things about staff and challenging peope to volunteer is a red herring that has nothing to do with the quality of the match itself. I know a few of the people who are posting in this thread and they give a TON back to the sport in dollars, sweat and time. There are a few who posting on this thread who probably do WAY too much voluntering to the detriment of their shooting performance both on the local and national level. To chastize those people who want to strive for a better nationals is against the grain of quality. Anything of value takes hard work and if anyone thinks Nationals is perfect is delusional. Not all truth is fun to hear, but is necessary for refinement and improvement.

Nationals should be the absolute best match in the country, and the last few years it was not. The competition has increased and that challenge must be met with renwed dedication to quality. I still have a lot of confidence in the new venues and USPSA leadership that they are listening, responding and working hard to propel USPSA forward from where we are, including a higher quality Nationals.

Prior to the term of my current AD, I could not get a response from my AD, or the President. Now when I make an inquiry, I get more than one response more often than not.

Edited by MarkCO, 11 December 2012 - 05:57 PM.

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#78 Mitch Harrington

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

Hi,
I want to thank all those people involved in putting on the Area and National matches, THANK YOU! you gals and guys are doing the work 98% of us don't want to do or don't have the time to do it. And your spending way to much of your own money to do those mostly un-thanked jobs. Volunteering is one thing servitude is another and no compensation for your HARD work is unforgivable. If the 98% are not willing to work, than they should be willing to pay the way of those that are. I save all year to attend the Nationals it is a great match. If it where to cost another $100 I would not go out to dinner two more times during the year and pay it, no problem.
THANK YOU gals and guys again you do a great job! and I can't wait to shake your hands again and tell you that face to face! Because you make this sport FUN for me.

John Koppi
L-2680


Well said and greatly appreciated John. I have decided to shoot both matches next year instead of working. Honestly, I will feel guilty and a little selfish for doing so, but I have absolute faith someone from this thread will take my place. Who's it gonna be?
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#79 dirty whiteboy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:55 AM


But, can someone tell me what I would be missing?

If you're talking about Nats at St George, you'd miss a number of national and state parks with unbelieveably gorgeous scenery within a 300 mile radius. But I'm biased.

Also, whether you want to believe it or not, there is a mystique with Nats. There is to me, anyway.

I live about an hour away from the Blue Ridge Mountains and a couple hours from the Atlantic Ocean! I have seen great views. And the "mystique" you speak of, you are the first person i have ever heard mention that. But, I did notice you did NOT go on about anything match or shooting wise. That's my point, what sets it apart from good Area matches or state matches to make it worth the effort and cost?

Edited by dirty whiteboy, 12 December 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#80 remoandiris

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

I've traveled in every state except Hawaii. I've been all over western Europe...Alps, Norway, Scotland, etc. I lived in Panama for 9 months. I live about 20 minutes from the Atlantic. You haven't seen views like Utah views. No place in North America looks like Arches Nat'l Park or Bryce Canyon. Not saying the Blue Ridge Mnts aren't nice and the BRP isn't a great drive/ride.

As far as shooting at Nats, IMO, the low round count over 3 days blows. But, when planning round count, one has to keep in mind ammo weight limits in carry-on bags and scheduling 400+ people to get thru a match in 3 days. Not every stage can be 30 rds.

Edited by remoandiris, 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM.


#81 Joe4d

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:40 AM



But, can someone tell me what I would be missing?

If you're talking about Nats at St George, you'd miss a number of national and state parks with unbelieveably gorgeous scenery within a 300 mile radius. But I'm biased.

Also, whether you want to believe it or not, there is a mystique with Nats. There is to me, anyway.

I live about an hour away from the Blue Ridge Mountains and a couple hours from the Atlantic Ocean! I have seen great views. And the "mystique" you speak of, you are the first person i have ever heard mention that. But, I did notice you did NOT go on about anything match or shooting wise. That's my point, what sets it apart from good Area matches or state matches to make it worth the effort and cost?


The fact that it was in a cool location that was easy and cheap to get in and out of for people that have never been.
If its gonna be in BFE it should be moved around the country.

#82 Chuck Anderson

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:21 AM




But, can someone tell me what I would be missing?

If you're talking about Nats at St George, you'd miss a number of national and state parks with unbelieveably gorgeous scenery within a 300 mile radius. But I'm biased.

Also, whether you want to believe it or not, there is a mystique with Nats. There is to me, anyway.

I live about an hour away from the Blue Ridge Mountains and a couple hours from the Atlantic Ocean! I have seen great views. And the "mystique" you speak of, you are the first person i have ever heard mention that. But, I did notice you did NOT go on about anything match or shooting wise. That's my point, what sets it apart from good Area matches or state matches to make it worth the effort and cost?


The fact that it was in a cool location that was easy and cheap to get in and out of for people that have never been.
If its gonna be in BFE it should be moved around the country.


So 90 minutes from the exact same cheap and easy location to get into this year is BFE? I guess folks out west have a different idea of how far apart things are. If you want quick and easy, fly into St. George. If you want cheap, fly into Vegas and drive an hour and a half.

#83 No.343

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

It seems to me that customer satisfaction surveys need to go out for the shooters and the staff. I only attended one nationals, maybe 2008, and really had no desire to return. Phil's vision for 2013 sounds great to me and I will attend the revolver nationals. I hope USPSA makes an effort to capture feedback from all parties involved. I think that this thread was started with the best intentions in mind, but there is a lot of emotion in some of these posts.
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#84 remoandiris

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:53 PM


The fact that it was in a cool location that was easy and cheap to get in and out of for people that have never been.
If its gonna be in BFE it should be moved around the country.


So 90 minutes from the exact same cheap and easy location to get into this year is BFE? I guess folks out west have a different idea of how far apart things are. If you want quick and easy, fly into St. George. If you want cheap, fly into Vegas and drive an hour and a half.

+1 on what Chuck said.

St George is as much BFE as Frostproof. Scratch that, Frostproof is MORE BFE than St George.

#85 gose

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

The way I see it, once you open the door to "Compensating" the match staff its really hard to create a financially viable match. This is a volunteer sport at all levels, from club matches to the nationals. We need to keep to that mantra in order to make these things work. You are either volunteering your time and $$$ to help run the match or you are not. I think that when we are staffing matches with non-shooters that is the start of the problem. There is no reason why the majority of the match staff couldnt also be active shooters who will also compete in the match. As a match director, all you need to do is make the schedule work to support that plan.


+1

Pretty much all major 3-gun matches are run on a volunteer basis where you get a room, food and shoot for free in exchange for your service as an RO.

I find it somewhat strange that there are 15-20 3-gun matches run in a 3-day format where they get enough people to volunteer (some matches even have to turn people down), but USPSA can barely get enough ROs for the friggin Nationals even when handing out a ton of extra money?

Seems a little strange to me....

Edited by gose, 13 December 2012 - 06:17 PM.


#86 deacon12224

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

When comparing Nationals to other matches you also have to keep in mind that Nationals has 18 or so stages. That is significantly bigger than pretty much any other match around.

#87 Joe4d

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:03 AM

yes an hour and a half away , and it might as well be in a different part of the country. If your not gonna have the "vacation location" angle. Move the thing around. Moving it an hour and a half away, means it might as well not be there. WHo wants to go on vacation to have a 3 hour commute every day ?. And if you're gonna have it in a remote area why not move it around the country ?
Having it NOT in Vegas, yet in same region as Vegas, was a poor move and does a disservice to the membership.
Like I mentioned, if you are NOT gonna have it in an advantageous location. It should move around the Country. After all the is the UNITED STATES practical shooting association. Not the Western Practical shooting association. Its been in either OK or Nevada for how many years now ?

#88 sperman

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:45 AM

When comparing Nationals to other matches you also have to keep in mind that Nationals has 18 or so stages. That is significantly bigger than pretty much any other match around.


I shot nationals the first year it was at Vegas, and I think it was a down year. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it was 16 stages, and the round count was about the same as Area 6 that same year. I do remember that open shooters didn't have to do a reload for the entire match. I think the biggest stage was 28 rounds.

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#89 remoandiris

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:07 AM

yes an hour and a half away , and it might as well be in a different part of the country. If your not gonna have the "vacation location" angle. Move the thing around. Moving it an hour and a half away, means it might as well not be there. WHo wants to go on vacation to have a 3 hour commute every day ?. And if you're gonna have it in a remote area why not move it around the country ?
Having it NOT in Vegas, yet in same region as Vegas, was a poor move and does a disservice to the membership.
Like I mentioned, if you are NOT gonna have it in an advantageous location. It should move around the Country. After all the is the UNITED STATES practical shooting association. Not the Western Practical shooting association. Its been in either OK or Nevada for how many years now ?

Are you saying St George is or is not a vacation location? If you're saying it is not, you don't know what you're talking about. If you want to stay in Vegas and commute, that is your choice...but a poor one, IMO. What is an "advantageous location"?

I've shot at both ranges and stayed in both cities. I like St George better.

#90 lugnut

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:27 AM

Wow. Lot's of varying opinions. I've never shot at the Nats yet, I'd love to some day but the costs for me outweigh the benefits to an extent. I've competed at other major events and have run large regional matches. It's NOT easy. No matter how well you do it's not enough. To say it's mentally draining is a huge understatement. My philosophy is to do whatever we can to HELP make these matches manageable for the staff- that includes financially, physically and mentally. We will always have a demand from the shooting community... but I'm not sure about the ability to get enough good help.

Walkins and 12 hour days. No way. That's just crazy and I'd be concerned with the ability of staff to operate at 100% for that long. 3-4 people per bay is reasonable.

If someone gets paid to "subsidize" their costs- it's not even close to enough. I have no idea how people can commit as much time for the Nats- God bless the people that step up! Yeah I think they should shoot for free too.

Will all this being said... the event revenue has to fund the expenses. If management can do that... and help the staff/volunteers to the extent they can- all is good from my perspective.

Thanks a million to the people that step up.
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#91 Chuck Anderson

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

To answer the question of why move the Nationals, but keep it in the same area. USPSA owns a fair amount of props, steel and other physical goods that are expensive to move from one location to another. Additionally the MG Nats are staying in Vegas for the forseeable future. By keeping the Naitonals in the same geographical area it reduces costs by not requiring large amounts props to be moved across the country. Additionally, it still allows Vegas and St. George to share the prop as needed, further reducing the costs of building another set of walls, buying another set of steel, movers, etc. for each new range.

The reason to move is St. George is a better range. Whether you like the city it's in or not, the range facility is better, It has the capability of holding a Nationals for significantly more shooters, more stages, more everything that is shooting related. St. George easily has the capability of hosting 600-700 shooters for a National match. Vegas would be a stretch, and probably not possible. Some people like Vegas, some don't. I know I'm starting to get very burned out on the town after the last several years of spending 3-4 weeks a year there for shooting/SHOT Show.

#92 motosapiens

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:14 PM


The way I see it, once you open the door to "Compensating" the match staff its really hard to create a financially viable match. This is a volunteer sport at all levels, from club matches to the nationals. We need to keep to that mantra in order to make these things work. You are either volunteering your time and $$$ to help run the match or you are not. I think that when we are staffing matches with non-shooters that is the start of the problem. There is no reason why the majority of the match staff couldnt also be active shooters who will also compete in the match. As a match director, all you need to do is make the schedule work to support that plan.


+1

Pretty much all major 3-gun matches are run on a volunteer basis where you get a room, food and shoot for free in exchange for your service as an RO.

I find it somewhat strange that there are 15-20 3-gun matches run in a 3-day format where they get enough people to volunteer (some matches even have to turn people down), but USPSA can barely get enough ROs for the friggin Nationals even when handing out a ton of extra money?

Seems a little strange to me....


Huh? a ton of money? I must have missed out on that. Can you provide a link so i can get my ton?

I didn't get to shoot for free at nationals. Didn't get to shoot at all, and if I had, I would have paid almost as much as USPSA reimbursed for travel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining and I enjoyed the experience, but it still cost me a lot of time and effort and some money and I didn't get to shoot, so I find your characterization inaccurate.

I think st george will be a hoot. I'm working area 1 to get ready for it.

#93 Joe4d

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

I guess I look at Nationals as a one time deal for much of the membership, as oppossed to something to do every year . IE I went one time, to Vegas had a great time. WOuldnt have gone if match was in Tulsa or St George. To go for just a shooting match Id like to see it move around. If we are spending a couple hundred dollars buying RO's dinners, I imagine renting a Uhaul wouldnt break the bank. ALso the Nationals I went to, I didnt see any extravagant props that arnt available at pretty much any large USPSA range.

#94 Nik Habicht

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:23 PM

yes an hour and a half away , and it might as well be in a different part of the country. If your not gonna have the "vacation location" angle. Move the thing around. Moving it an hour and a half away, means it might as well not be there. WHo wants to go on vacation to have a 3 hour commute every day ?. And if you're gonna have it in a remote area why not move it around the country ?
Having it NOT in Vegas, yet in same region as Vegas, was a poor move and does a disservice to the membership.
Like I mentioned, if you are NOT gonna have it in an advantageous location. It should move around the Country. After all the is the UNITED STATES practical shooting association. Not the Western Practical shooting association. Its been in either OK or Nevada for how many years now ?


I don't think you get to count Tulsa as having the match out West, considering that Tulsa is about 1300 miles from Surry, VA, and 1450 miles from Los Angeles. That would seem to make OK pretty Central......
Nik

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This is a game of high-speed precision. If you don't precisely plan what you want to happen, there's not much chance that it will. ---- Brian Enos, 2004

#95 Nik Habicht

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:27 PM

ALso the Nationals I went to, I didnt see any extravagant props that arnt available at pretty much any large USPSA range.

So your local match owns sufficient props to put on 18 stages right now? No extra steel, stands, movers, or walls needed? It's not about extravagant props, it's about enough props.....
Nik

You're shooting Steel like an A class shooter. Why are you shooting the Paper so slowly? ---- Dave Marques, Production Nationals, 2005

This is a game of high-speed precision. If you don't precisely plan what you want to happen, there's not much chance that it will. ---- Brian Enos, 2004

#96 mactiger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:45 AM

I've read some good suggestions here, and some bad ones.
One thing that many fail to consider is the time allowed for the matches. Given the past schedules, there was no way to allow staff to shoot, as much as we would like that to happen. Dedicated staff makes a match run way more efficiently. Doubling stages on a single bay does not, but was almost unavoidable due to the availability of bays and the wishes of the President to run 18 stages, using a half-day format, and doing it in groups. There are a lot of things that are just not doable at DS in Vegas. Getting more bays is one of those things.

Anyway, not to complain, and thanks for the suggestions. I have many of these in my post match critique, and plan to work on improving Nationals 2013.
We are always looking for competent staff, so if you want to work it, please fill out an app when available.

Troy
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2013 Area 4 Match




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