60 replies to this topic

[amish_rabbi]

Is there a general rule for breaking clay targets? ive been running matches under the "you must clear the target stand" rule but I was wondering what the actual rules are so i can use them instead

[3gungeezer]

I have always heard one pellet hole is a break. It is kinda hard for the shooter to see that on the move but that is the "rule" as far as I know

[Langenator]

My local club uses the "one pellet hit" rule as well. A pellet 'hole' is usually a small chunk missing, at minimum - it's not like it's a paper target. If there's a doubt, the RO will usually call it.

[RiggerJJ]

If you are running the match, the rules are what you say they are unless you are under a sanctioning body, then use their rule.
I prefer to say something to the effect of "...all (static and aerial) clays must break into at least two visible pieces to score" just like sporting clays or skeet, but I usually get flamed on for it by the range lawyers... (but I can take it...
I just want the clay to be broken, not putz around with chips, etc that were on the clay before it was shot at. Seen too many people get away with those that should have been misses...
I like your rule!
jj

Edited by RiggerJJ, 23 November 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[EkuJustice]

Whats considered clearing the stand. Its very possible to nail the target and leave fragments in the grove. Most use the one hole

[amish_rabbi]

basically you must destroy the clay (they turn into nice black smoke usually) but I realize that there could be a piece of clay sitting sideways on the stand and it just looks black to the shooter but isnt technically "cleared" so someone could be a pain and argue it and screw the shooter who listened to the spirit of the rule. I want to avoid this and was wondering how everyone else delt with it. I may have to move to 2 visible pieces, it seems easier to score and less room for arguement

[RiggerJJ]

Break the clay, pretty simple. Debris in the stand? Come on...
Holes? How big of a hole? How big of a chip? What about chips on the clay that was there before it was shot at? Only use perfect, unchipped clays? Sometimes thats half a box. That gets pretty expensive. Just break the clay. If ya hit it, it will break. Into many pieces.
jj

Edited by RiggerJJ, 24 November 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[springy]

Personally, I like the 1 pellet deal. However, that 1 pellot, at 1000fps, needs to make a hole, not a chip. Nobody's got any business putting up a clay that already has a hole in it.

You understand what I mean: a hole?

Maybe I'd better rephrase that: chippies shouldn't be allowed in this sport.

[davehorn]

What if the clay falls or is knocked off(by shot at from another target) the stand during the shooters run, but is not broken? This came up at a recent club match as we had a couple of clays that clearly fell off their stands. A couple broke when hitting the ground, some did not. What's the most common way to score those?

[StealthyBlagga]

Wording in IMA-SMM3G rules:

6.1.7 Frangible targets (e.g. clay pigeons) must break by gunfire to score. A target with a significant piece visibly detached is considered “broken”.

The RO makes the call. If necessary the competitor may escalate to the CRO then the RM.

Edited by StealthyBlagga, 23 November 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[urikagold]

I believe under USPSA rules if a target falls from the stand it is considered a dead target. This rarely happens at our club with our clay holder design. When it does happen we count it as a break if the shooter fires a shot at the empty stand. Same goes for our flippers. If they break on the way up and the shooter fires at the target it is counted as a break. We also use the one BB hole as a break.

[RiggerJJ]

basically you must destroy the clay (they turn into nice black smoke usually) but I realize that there could be a piece of clay sitting sideways on the stand and it just looks black to the shooter but isnt technically "cleared" so someone could be a pain and argue it and screw the shooter who listened to the spirit of the rule. I want to avoid this and was wondering how everyone else delt with it. I may have to move to 2 visible pieces, it seems easier to score and less room for arguement

yea...you can't really require the hits to be dustings...
jj

[RiggerJJ]

Personally, I like the 1 pellet deal. However, that 1 pellot, at 1000fps, needs to make a hole, not a chip. Nobody's got any business putting up a clay that already has a hole in it.

You understand what I mean: a hole?

Maybe I'd better rephrase that: chippies shouldn't be allowed in this sport.

those of you who think the concept of a single hole is a hit, try this;
Take a pattern board, shoot it with your normal 7.5 load. Then place a clay at the edge over a single hole. Still think it should be scored as a hit? Out of ALL of those pellets, only one hit he target. Its not even close to the center of the pattern.
Ok, then set up some plates that you would normally use for shotgun, and paint them white so you can see individual pellets, (this is important). Then,
Remembering the pattern on the pattern board, shoot the plates with your normal 7.5 load with the intention of having only one pellet on a plate. Did the one with only one pellet hitting it fall? Probably not... when you were shooting, did you feel that you were aiming at the target, or trying to miss it?
Still think a single bb hole in a clay should be a hit? I don't...

jj

Edited by RiggerJJ, 24 November 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[RiggerJJ]

What if the clay falls or is knocked off(by shot at from another target) the stand during the shooters run, but is not broken? This came up at a recent club match as we had a couple of clays that clearly fell off their stands. A couple broke when hitting the ground, some did not. What's the most common way to score those?

Pretty simple, make sure you have stands that the clays will not fall off of, use rubberbands, etc so the clay stays put until it is hit.
jj

[AustinT]

Clays are clays, plates are plates. Want it to fall? Use plates.

Anything other than 1 hole to score is way too subjective. But I am not an RM/MD!

[Mark K]

Our rules say : 9.1.7 Frangible targets (e.g. clay pigeons) must break by gunfire to score. A
target with a significant piece visibly detached is considered “broken”. Thrown
targets must be broken while still in the air.

[KentG]

Clays are clays, plates are plates. Want it to fall? Use plates.

Anything other than 1 hole to score is way too subjective. But I am not an RM/MD!

Yup. I have seen the one hole shot. Not often but its happened. I have also seen them fall off the stand as part of an array that may have had the stand hit taking out another shot. For a club match its not worth the time for a reshoot if it falls like that. Big match, make sure the gamers cant do it. But I LOVE 2 fers on ligning up clays in big arrays if possible. Sometimes we will set up an array knowing one or more 2fer is there. Its up to the shooters to spot them.

[springy]

what about 2 holes?

maybe 1 hole, and a chip?

how about 1 hole, a chip, and a visible crack?

Really, somehow it has to be that no "decision" is made, no arbitrary calls. You can't have the RO walk up to a clay and say that it's not broken enough. I've only shot at matches east of Nevada, and the rule has always been 1 hole and everyone was happy, and when someone tried to claim a chip, lots of shooters (not "the" shooter) were pissed.

and of course: IMHO

[Benelli Chick]

Clays are clays, plates are plates. Want it to fall? Use plates.

Anything other than 1 hole to score is way too subjective. But I am not an RM/MD!

Yup. I have seen the one hole shot. Not often but its happened. I have also seen them fall off the stand as part of an array that may have had the stand hit taking out another shot. For a club match its not worth the time for a reshoot if it falls like that. Big match, make sure the gamers cant do it. But I LOVE 2 fers on ligning up clays in big arrays if possible. Sometimes we will set up an array knowing one or more 2fer is there. Its up to the shooters to spot them.

I agree on the twofers! There's nothing more fun that watching someone squat down to get a twofer and then miss!!!!

Aah! The joys of 3-Gun stage set-up! Giving you just enough rope!!!! You can do it with plates as well!!!! Watching for that special line-up! The shooter takes the time to be sure the shot is just right....and...one of the plates wiggles, but doesn't fall...or even both don't fall...priceless!!!

Sometimes, we use clays instead of plates because there's slugs on the stage and we don't want the select loading slug on steel to be part of the challenge. If you can hit the clay with a slug by mistake, more power to you...and the birdshot doesn't ring so good! But, plates are cheaper because they're reusable!


Denise

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Simple - one hole is a "break". The vast majority of matches use this rule to great effect - anything else gets way too subjective and hard to score.

If MDs want to force competiors to place more than one pellet on the target, they should use falling steel.

[High Lord Gomer]

If the match is a USPSA match:

MG Shotgun 4.4.1.1
Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated from the original target to be counted for score. A fixed frangible target that falls from a hit on its holder will be considered a hit.

...and...

9.1.6
Engaging a frangible, knock-down or swinging style target but not breaking it (one BB hole is a break), knocking it down or causing the target to react will result in a 10 second penalty per target. R.O. may call hits.

[kurtm]

Can someone please quantify "significant" so we have an idea what it means is it 19% missing in total area? Is it 26.3%? is it more? and who makes the clear overlay that will gage this so that when we hold it up to the clay we can assertain what "significant" is. I had a clay sitting around for a while that had 15 perfect little 8 shot sized holes through it and it was still INTACT,( but it eventually broke as folkes would ask to see it and one day it finally broke due to rough handling). This particular clay was hit at 45 yards with a IC choke. which would be "significant" for a clay at that range with that open a dispertion in my mind, but we need the gage! or at least the definition....not just a "you know what it is when you see it"!

I once shot a match that said a "significant piece of the clay must fall off the stand, and half way through they changed R.O.s on the stage and the new definition was no "significant" chips must be left on the stand, because there was nothing written down for the R.O.s to follow. Really screwed some shooters...thankfully I was in the first batch!

[High Lord Gomer]

Even though we don't have a pistol classifier stage as part of our 3 gun matches we still run them by USPSA rules to avoid the grey areas that invariably appear when you have rules like "....a significant piece..."

[StealthyBlagga]

Can someone please quantify "significant" ....not just a "you know what it is when you see it"!

This is tough to really quantify in a hard and fast way, except maybe by weighing the target before and after (which of course would be impractical).

When there is clear evidence of a pellet hole or a big missing chunk, then the answer is obvious. The ambiguity arises when a chip is missing due to no obvious cause. Was the chip missing before (handling damage), or was it caused by a projectile? This is similar to the dilemma caused by a bullet fragment deflecting off a prop and hitting a paper target; the RO has to look for evidence that a bullet/pellet created the hole (NROI gives reasonably objective guidance to ROs on this). If there is no evidence of the projectile making the hit, then it is a miss. Some % of the time (sorry, can't quantify this % either ) this will be a judgement call by the match official, subject to the usual rules of challenge escalation; RO->CRO->RM->arbitration committee.

Clay targets are imperfect. For that matter, so are most of the steel and paper targets we use. If we want perfect targets, we need to invent them. Until that day, we'll have to rely on the integrity of our ROs to make the best and most objective calls they can.

Edited by StealthyBlagga, 26 November 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[AustinT]

Or, we could go with one hole, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, not slow the match down, and not elevate everyone's blood pressure.