Jump to content


Photo

Test for fundamental marksmanship skills


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Nimitz

Nimitz

    Burned Out

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indialantic, FL

Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:58 AM

I'm looking for a good test for determining fundamental accuracy skill as it relates to action shooting. Is the Dot Turture Drill the answer or are there other skill tests which would be good to test accuracy? I'm not interetsed in testing draw speed, split or transition times, movement, etc as without the requisite marksmanship skills for our sport I don't believe those other skills matter. If you can't hit the target when & where you want on demand, what difference does it make how fast you are ...particularily in production Div which is where I live ....

I get a little better every day ...

 

USPSA:  A75116

My Videos

My Range Diary

 

Slowing down is never the right answer - NEVER


#2 Hi-Power Jack

Hi-Power Jack

    Back From the Dead

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,277 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:01 AM

Dot torture is great - don't have to set up target at 25 or 40 yards - you
can shoot it at 7 yards - lot's less walking :closedeyes:

It is a good idea, though, to do some practice at further distances in
case you find yourself in a 40 yard match (it does happen).

Really nothing wrong with combining the accuracy test you've asked
about without adding transitions and draws as well (the Dot Torture
adds them). Simply adding to the mix, all for the good. :cheers:
Thank you,

Jack, Super Senior

B Open - STI TruBor 9mm major; C Limited - Browning Hi-Power 9mm minor

#3 old506

old506

    Calls Shots

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

I think that plain 'ol group shooting off of a bench and shooting freestyle at varying distances will help. The fundamentals of accuracy start with learning how to hit what you want to hit regardless of how long it takes you to do it. It seems the more group shooting I do, the more accurate I get. ;)
...Until No Doubt Remains...

#4 Nimitz

Nimitz

    Burned Out

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indialantic, FL

Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

at this point I'm just looking for the 'test'. What drills to do to improve your accuracy is the next piece of course. I didn't include plain old group shooting because I want the accuracy test to have the important elements of our sport included in the test to be revelant to what we do. Not a perfect analogy but testing how fast you can run a 1/4 mile may not be an appropriater test of your running skill if your sport is long distance running While they are both running, different elements are important to each ...

I get a little better every day ...

 

USPSA:  A75116

My Videos

My Range Diary

 

Slowing down is never the right answer - NEVER


#5 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:08 AM

at this point I'm just looking for the 'test'. What drills to do to improve your accuracy is the next piece of course. I didn't include plain old group shooting because I want the accuracy test to have the important elements of our sport included in the test to be revelant to what we do. Not a perfect analogy but testing how fast you can run a 1/4 mile may not be an appropriater test of your running skill if your sport is long distance running While they are both running, different elements are important to each ...



I think what old506 said was about all you can do to test just accuracy. All the drills are going to involve the draw, moving, par times ect. I like to shoot prone to determine first how accurate my load is then use that group to compare my accuracy in other positions.

Edited by toothguy, 20 November 2012 - 04:50 PM.

The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#6 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

Sorry, for some reason I can't edit on the computer at work. I am guessing your looking for a practical accuracy test that involves shooting from different positions like sitting, behind a barricade, prone, kneeling and standing. There is such a test of pure fundamental shooting skill with generous time limits so you can concentrate on accuracy it's PPC. :)

Personally when working on accuracy I don't combine it with anything else. I try to make an accuracy default setting that is programmed so no matter what the circumstance it's just there.

Edited by toothguy, 20 November 2012 - 04:49 PM.

The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#7 Niceash

Niceash

    Finally read the FAQs

  • Classified
  • PipPip
  • 127 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

Try this;
http://www.brianenos...howtopic=128663

There is a pdf log on post #61

This looked like a good benchmark test and I plan on doing this next time I am at the range.
Glock 35 Limited - TTI Sights, TTI Trigger Work, KKM Barrel, Custom Stippling by TTI

#8 Nimitz

Nimitz

    Burned Out

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indialantic, FL

Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

I guess that's the real question: should the test be one of accuracy that includes certain elements od practical shooting like the standing draw, draws to alternate positions, draw & move to a position, transition bewteen multipe targets/multiple distances, etc, etc or ... should it just be a pure group shooting or bullseye shooting test with no other elements included?

Accuracy while executing pure bulleye or group shooting is going to be different than accuracy which includes elements of practical shooting but without a time limit ...

I get a little better every day ...

 

USPSA:  A75116

My Videos

My Range Diary

 

Slowing down is never the right answer - NEVER


#9 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

I guess that's the real question: should the test be one of accuracy that includes certain elements od practical shooting like the standing draw, draws to alternate positions, draw & move to a position, transition bewteen multipe targets/multiple distances, etc, etc or ... should it just be a pure group shooting or bullseye shooting test with no other elements included?

Accuracy while executing pure bulleye or group shooting is going to be different than accuracy which includes elements of practical shooting but without a time limit ...



I seem to only be able to effectively work on one thing at a time. Even the draw I have to break down and practice each part then put it together.
The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#10 Hi-Power Jack

Hi-Power Jack

    Back From the Dead

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,277 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:34 PM

that's the real question: should the test be one of accuracy that includes certain elements of practical shooting or ... should it just be a pure group shooting

I practiced "pure group shooting" for years - never improved my USPSA ability.

Since I've been combing accuracy with "other elements of practical shooting",
I've finally seen some improvement in my USPSA ability (scores).

:cheers:
Thank you,

Jack, Super Senior

B Open - STI TruBor 9mm major; C Limited - Browning Hi-Power 9mm minor

#11 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:22 PM


that's the real question: should the test be one of accuracy that includes certain elements of practical shooting or ... should it just be a pure group shooting

I practiced "pure group shooting" for years - never improved my USPSA ability.

Since I've been combing accuracy with "other elements of practical shooting",
I've finally seen some improvement in my USPSA ability (scores).

:cheers:



If you can shoot good groups it will make you a more accurate shooter no matter what game you play. I think it's good to combine something like PPC with IPSC but the PPC will not help in any way with the movement skills required for IPSC. It will help with the shooting part when you get in position. I have seen some IPSC shooters that score well but can't shoot a group at 15 yards. The top shooters can shoot a tight group and do it with efficiency in movement and stage planing.

Edited by toothguy, 20 November 2012 - 05:00 PM.

The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#12 old506

old506

    Calls Shots

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

An accurate shot is an accurate shot. It doesn't matter if you have to run a mile to get to your gun or are wrapped up like a pretzel when you do it. What is most important is that you know what an accurate shot looks and feels like.
...Until No Doubt Remains...

#13 Nimitz

Nimitz

    Burned Out

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indialantic, FL

Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

True but what happens before you get set to pull the trigger matters ... I assume you are not trying to argue that the skill set needed to be a great bullseye shooter is the same skill set needed to be a great IPSC style shooter? Adding the fundamentals of our sport to drills working on accuracy only seems to make sense since you're going to have to execute thesse well eventually no mater how accurate you are.

I get a little better every day ...

 

USPSA:  A75116

My Videos

My Range Diary

 

Slowing down is never the right answer - NEVER


#14 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:34 PM

True but what happens before you get set to pull the trigger matters ... I assume you are not trying to argue that the skill set needed to be a great bullseye shooter is the same skill set needed to be a great IPSC style shooter? Adding the fundamentals of our sport to drills working on accuracy only seems to make sense since you're going to have to execute thesse well eventually no mater how accurate you are.


The most important part of the skill set to be a great shooter is sight alignment and trigger control. Those are the fundamentals of your sport. The drills working on accuracy are needed for retention of the fundamentals. The other stuff are things that you need to do efficiently to get to the part where you execute the fundamentals, sight alignment through good trigger control.
The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#15 beastfrog

beastfrog

    Finally read the FAQs

  • Classified
  • PipPip
  • 70 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern Virginia

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:06 AM

For pure accuracy, try just the slow fire portions of The Humbler

#16 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:51 AM

1500 PPC Course of fire
  • Match I
    • Standing – Twelve (12) shots in twenty (20) seconds at ten (10) yards.
    • Standing – Twelve (12) shots in twenty (20) seconds at fifteen (15) yards.
  • Match II
    • All at twenty-five (25) yards.
    • Total time ninety (90) seconds.
    • Kneeling – Six (6) shots.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, left hand, behind barricade.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, right hand, behind barricade.
  • Match III
    • All at fifty (50) yards.
    • Total time one hundred and sixty-five (165) seconds.
    • Sitting – Six (6) shots.
    • Kneeling – Six (6) shots.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, left hand, behind barricade.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, right hand, behind barricade.
  • Match IV
    • All at twenty-five (25) yards.
    • Standing – Twelve (12) shots in thirty-five (35) seconds.
    • Standing – Twelve (12) shots in thirty-five (35) seconds.
  • Match V – Stage 1
    • Standing – Twelve (12) shots in twenty (20) seconds, at ten (10) yards.
  • Match V – Stage 2
    • All at twenty-five (25) yards.
    • Total time ninety (90) seconds.
    • Kneeling – Six (6) shots.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, left hand, behind barricade.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, right hand, behind barricade.
  • Match V – Stage 3
    • All at fifty (50) yards.
    • Total time one hundred and sixty-five (165) seconds.
    • Sitting – Six (6) shots.
    • Kneeling – Six (6) shots.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, left hand, behind barricade.
    • Standing – Six (6) shots, right hand, behind barricade.
  • Match V – Stage 4
    • Standing – Six (6) shots in twelve (12) seconds at twenty-five (25) yards.
Target is a standard B-27 silhouette. The goal is to keep all shots in a 4x6" 10-ring with a 2x3" X-ring.

Edited by toothguy, 21 November 2012 - 08:25 AM.

The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.

#17 Sac Law Man

Sac Law Man

    Sees Sights Lift

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sacramento California

Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

Shooting accurate is important, but shooting an accurate shot on demand is where its at. Keep that in mind for the future. If you are a new shooter, or not sure, I suggest you learn what an acceptable sight picture is, learn what the correct trigger pull is, and dry fire a lot. You can fire an accurate shot with a marginal sight pic, but you’re not going to shoot an accurate shot with a marginal trigger pull. Trigger pull is the key. A lot of the skills needed to shoot accurately can be learned while dry firing. The best thing you can do otherwise is shoot groups off a rest. Take as much human error out of it as possible and really put yourself to the test. Set up a rest and shoot groups at 25 yards at a bulls eye. Depending on your skill level, you can use an 8, 6, or 3 inch circle. When you start grouping shots in clusters your there, given your gun has that accuracy capability.

At some point you will need to introduce speed and movement into the equation.
.

Edited by Sac Law Man, 23 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

Rudy Project Shooting Squad


#18 toothguy

toothguy

    Beyond it All

  • Classifieds
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,232 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas City, Mo.

Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:21 AM


The drive to want to win is only an asset when it pushes you to practice better/more and develop your mental game. When you let it make decisions for you in a match it is never your friend. It will sing the siren song of shooting beyond your skill sets with predictable unpleasant results. The skills you bring that day are the only skills you have. No amount of desire will change that. Shoot your own game. Let the results sort themselves out after the match. My bet is that not only will you do better but you will enjoy the sport more. Rick Korzep.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users