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Rulebook Re-write?


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#1 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

There seem to have been a lot of rules brought up here with questions and unclear answers etc etc - since I'm semi new to this sport - how and when is the rulebook re-written? Seems 4 years could be time for it to be gone over and some of the gray areas cleared out.
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#2 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

ETA - I wanna be on the Tiger Team for the rewrite :-)
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#3 Sarge

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

http://www.uspsa.org...esProof3web.pdf

It was just updated two years ago. Plus NROI rulings are made and disseminated as needed for pertinent rules issues.

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#4 ktm300

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

Most of the "not clear" stuff is pretty clear once you take an RO course from one of the NORI guys and work a few big matches with a good RM. No matter what you do to the rulebook, there will always be flaws. Perfect is not obtainable.

I came from another sport that had a rulebook that was about 10% of this one in detail. I think it is pretty darn good. Not to toss stones but the reason IDPA has Tiger teams is that rulebook is a mess. I spent 30 minutes on it and just gave up.

#5 ima45dv8

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:29 PM

There seem to have been a lot of rules brought up here with questions and unclear answers etc etc - since I'm semi new to this sport - how and when is the rulebook re-written? Seems 4 years could be time for it to be gone over and some of the gray areas cleared out.

Rewrite the rulebook based on some contentious discussions here? If that were a valid yardstick to measure the situation we'd be rewriting it about 3 times a month.

That's not to say that discussions here have not brought about rule changes. They absolutely have. We're very fortunate to have had (and still have) many BoD members actively participate in this Rules forum. But a total rewrite based on every argued point would not take into account the general tendency for us to...argue.

As for these gray areas you're concerned about, I'd challenge you to bring them to the attention of your Area Director for discussion and possible revision at the next Board meeting, AND to offer revised wording that would clear up any ambiguities you see. Don't take the lazy way out of just pointing at a problem and saying, "That's a problem". Heck, anybody can do that. Offer the solution to go along with it.
Speed IS a tactic (and a pretty damn good one, too! )
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#6 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

ima45dvd - I have actually done both - I write my AD (and other ADs) regarding issues so much when I start typing "tr" Troy's email pops up (ok not that much I'm just not one to hold back from speaking my mind and Troy is always there to listen and actually replies)

I'm not saying a 100% rewrite but man so many gray areas.

ktm - a couple things - what is a "raceholster"? Do you know that an RO can decided that my holster gives me an advantage - calls it a "raceholster" and now its no longer legal in production - yup - had it almost done this year took me a week or so to get confirmation that my holster was legal - hence the question posted in Front Sight about it.


I feel that the glossary should be expanded on there seems to still be quite a few terms used that are never defined. Also I think what a "competitive advantage" is needs to be defined more throughly in cases - ROs just last month tried giving a competitor a per shot procedural because 1 foot - yes just 1 foot - were outside the fault line and they SWORE that extra foot gaver her an advantage (she could see the same targets as before - all that foot did was move her a foot closer to the targets)

There are things in the rule book that when they occur nothing is listed as a consequence - ok so you have a rule but dont have a consequence for not following the rule?
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#7 ima45dv8

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:53 PM

ima45dvd - I have actually done both - I write my AD (and other ADs) regarding issues so much when I start typing "tr" Troy's email pops up (ok not that much I'm just not one to hold back from speaking my mind and Troy is always there to listen and actually replies)

I'm not saying a 100% rewrite but man so many gray areas.

ktm - a couple things - what is a "raceholster"? Do you know that an RO can decided that my holster gives me an advantage - calls it a "raceholster" and now its no longer legal in production - yup - had it almost done this year took me a week or so to get confirmation that my holster was legal - hence the question posted in Front Sight about it.


I feel that the glossary should be expanded on there seems to still be quite a few terms used that are never defined. Also I think what a "competitive advantage" is needs to be defined more throughly in cases - ROs just last month tried giving a competitor a per shot procedural because 1 foot - yes just 1 foot - were outside the fault line and they SWORE that extra foot gaver her an advantage (she could see the same targets as before - all that foot did was move her a foot closer to the targets)

There are things in the rule book that when they occur nothing is listed as a consequence - ok so you have a rule but dont have a consequence for not following the rule?

And your proposed solutions to these issues are.....?

And, are these really rulebook issues, or RO issues?
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#8 Bear23

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:57 PM

Brandon,

Take an RO course. I think that will satisfy your curiosity. We don't want a rule book as thick as the US tax code.

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#9 sperman

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:04 PM

Can we make it a rule that you can't post in the rules forum until you've taken an RO class? :devil:




ETA: I know I stuck my foot in my mouth a couple of times before I became certified.

Edited by sperman, 17 October 2012 - 06:04 PM.

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#10 CZinSC

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

I think part of the issue is Certified RO's not even knowing the rules that are black and white and need no interpretation.

How about everyone, certified RO's or not, read the rule book. I mean read it and understand it, not just breeze through it.

Just saw another example of a rule in another thread that is black and white, needs no interpretation, and a Certified RO that did not know it existed. And no, it is not an obscure rule.

#11 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

I would go to say I bet I know the rule book better than MOST RO's

Look at my previous points

1) the term raceholster used but not defined - so who gets to define it?
2) 5.2.5.2 and 5.2.5.3 directly contradict each other
3) Hand relaxed at sides issue - does 8.2.2 get negated if a start position is determined?



Sure maybe these things are discussed at an RO class - guess what - as a competitor - I follow the RULE BOOK not what is said in an RO class 2 years ago - if its not there its not there - the issue is there are many places where the answer ISNT THERE.

Like in the other thread that says 5.2.5.2 allows a competitor to adjust mag pouches and holster - but WHEN - so 1 RO may allow it BEFORE the shooter starts the match but NOT after - and another my allow it when it is found even if 1/2 way through a match. A couple words could make this much clearer
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#12 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

I think part of the issue is Certified RO's not even knowing the rules that are black and white and need no interpretation.

How about everyone, certified RO's or not, read the rule book. I mean read it and understand it, not just breeze through it.

Just saw another example of a rule in another thread that is black and white, needs no interpretation, and a Certified RO that did not know it existed. And no, it is not an obscure rule.



I agree - can't say how many times an RO told me that my shot didn't BREAK the perf - guess what - it doesn't have to BREAK it just TOUCH it - or 1 procedural per shot for stepping outside the fault line - guess what - not true either
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#13 ima45dv8

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

[snip]

...or 1 procedural per shot for stepping outside the fault line - guess what - not true either

It can be.
Speed IS a tactic (and a pretty damn good one, too! )
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#14 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

Right - it also CAN't be - if it is is being closer to a target by 1 foot - and not a significant competitive advantage its not - however how many times do RO's just count the shots?
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#15 ima45dv8

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

...how many times do RO's just count the shots?

Brandon, your enthusiasm is evident and commendable, but lacking experience, it's wearing a bit thin.

How often does an RO "just count the shots?" Hell, I don't know. Do you?
If you don't like the way things are officiated, get certified, grab a timer, and get to work. All will be right with the world.

:)
Speed IS a tactic (and a pretty damn good one, too! )
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#16 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

So since I'm not an RO the fact that I've seen many ROs issue per shot procedurals for having a foot on the other side of a fault line has no weight?

Interesting concept
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#17 Nik Habicht

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:56 PM

So since I'm not an RO the fact that I've seen many ROs issue per shot procedurals for having a foot on the other side of a fault line has no weight?

Interesting concept

You're entitled to an opinion. You're entitled to ask for reconsideration, or to put your money where your opinion is, and file an arbitration.

Not being an RO -- frankly not obtaining the education, while insisting that you know better than those folks who have been through the process (class) and are still applying and expanding on that knowledge every week or month -- that does have bearing on how seriously others will take your opinion.

It's a little like assuming that you know as much as your physician, because you have had a particular disease for 20 years, and have read everything published on it on the internet -- you may be an expert on how that particular disease affects you, but you can still benefit from consulting someone who has put the time in to go to medical school, etc......

There are stages where being a foot closer is a significant advantage, and stages where its not. Thats why good CROs will consult with their RM and make a decision before the first shot is fired, on how they're going to call any potential foot faults on their stage....

I'd listen to your argument every day -- and if I agree with it would make my call accordingly. But, if I have a question on how to make a call, you can bet I'll skip right over you, and consult someone's who's both smarter than me and better versed in the rules....

Mark would make that list....
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#18 38SuperDub

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:24 PM

I completely understand, but not having been through RO class isn't a reason to put down someone's opinions. I have taken the time to read and try to understand the rules as best I can. since I have lived in Texas there has only been one chance for an RO class and I'm still waiting reply if there is room left. When I was in Ms for 8 months, zero chance for an RO class. You see sometimes someone not becoming an RO isn't because they don't have an understanding and desire to understand the rules, it's just RO classes are not like local matches that are held every month on a regular basis.
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#19 ktm300

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:29 AM

I feel that the glossary should be expanded on there seems to still be quite a few terms used that are never defined.



Also I think what a "competitive advantage" is needs to be defined more throughly in cases - ROs just last month tried giving a competitor a per shot procedural because 1 foot - yes just 1 foot - were outside the fault line and they SWORE that extra foot gaver her an advantage (she could see the same targets as before - all that foot did was move her a foot closer to the targets)



Adding words to the glossary is not a rewrite, and yes it would be nice to have a few more in there. The problem is that it is not something that can just be done in a hurry, as each change needs a lot of thought put into it. You can cause more trouble than you fix.

10.2.1 is pretty clear to me:
A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching
the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a
Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an
object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or
Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.
However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any
target(s) while faulting,
the competitor may instead be assessed one
procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while
faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots
while faulting.


I have seen a lot of stages where 1 foot outside a fault line was a "significant advantage" and a lot where it wasn't. Did you get to see more of an A zone on a target that would have been hidden, could you have a lot less lean while shooting a target, did you have to move less to shoot all the targets, or were you just a foot closer? It is a call that has to be made on the ground and there are procedures in place that allow the shooter to argue the call. If she was just a foot closer to the target, and nothing else changed I would say the RO probably made a bad call. The "probably" comes in because I did not see the setup. That was not a rulebook issue that was an RO training issue.

In a perfect world everyone would read a rule and interpret it the same. That is never going to happen. So they can rewrite the rulebook 1000 times and we will still have issues. Doctors don't just read the books, they have classes to make sure they understand what they read. In that same perfect world everyone that RO's at a match would understand every rule. Don't hold your breath, learn the rulebook as well as you can and when something comes up you have a good chance of changing someones mind.

#20 Jotay

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:16 AM

There seem to have been a lot of rules brought up here with questions and unclear answers etc etc - since I'm semi new to this sport - how and when is the rulebook re-written? Seems 4 years could be time for it to be gone over and some of the gray areas cleared out.





Nope!

Read the rules, they are exactly like they are written and use your brain! What does competitive advantage mean to you? What does touching the perf mean?

It is best you learn the rules and just follow them. Uspsa has worked hard to provide us this rule book. No one here wants an 800 page rule book, we all have better things to do.

Play the game and have fun.

#21 ima45dv8

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:43 AM

Nik, you're very kind, and very humble. You're on my list for sure (and Kyle, and a few others).
========================


*Brandon asked me in a PM why I seem to be hard on him in this public forum. I didn't mean to be and if I was, I apologize just as publicly. No offence intended, Brandon.
Some of y'all know me and know that I'm generally just as 'direct' in person.
Speed IS a tactic (and a pretty damn good one, too! )
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Shhhh.... Please don't tell my Mom I'm a DRL. She thinks I'm still a piano player in a cathouse.

#22 steel1212

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:58 AM


There seem to have been a lot of rules brought up here with questions and unclear answers etc etc - since I'm semi new to this sport - how and when is the rulebook re-written? Seems 4 years could be time for it to be gone over and some of the gray areas cleared out.





Nope!

Read the rules, they are exactly like they are written and use your brain! What does competitive advantage mean to you? What does touching the perf mean?

It is best you learn the rules and just follow them. Uspsa has worked hard to provide us this rule book. No one here wants an 800 page rule book, we all have better things to do.

Play the game and have fun.


Nobody is asking for a 800 page rule book. What they are asking is that some of the rules that have holes in them be patched. As we progress in the sport the rules need to progress with us. This sport is becoming more and more main stream and less, "well that is the way steve always ran it here in bump in the road pistol club", and we need to be consistent across the board.

As far as people not having a RO/CRO card giving opinions on rules and getting hammered because they don't have a card is just BS. I can't get my CRO card because we have to now have a class full of RO that want to take the CRO class. I can barely get people to take the RO class around here just to run the match as it is now! So do my opinions on the rules I see every weekend matter less because I'm not a CRO? Brandon is just trying to point out a few issues with some rules. He isn't saying that the people that put the hours, and hours, and hours into the rule book we have didn't do a good job its just as we evolve as a sport so should the rules. He has a new view on things unlike the rest of us that have been shooting for a few years, me, and since the ice age Mark :devil: don't have.

Just my polite .02 :cheers:
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#23 Nik Habicht

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:09 AM

I completely understand, but not having been through RO class isn't a reason to put down someone's opinions. I have taken the time to read and try to understand the rules as best I can. since I have lived in Texas there has only been one chance for an RO class and I'm still waiting reply if there is room left. When I was in Ms for 8 months, zero chance for an RO class. You see sometimes someone not becoming an RO isn't because they don't have an understanding and desire to understand the rules, it's just RO classes are not like local matches that are held every month on a regular basis.

Neither are Nationals or area matches.....
Nik

You're shooting Steel like an A class shooter. Why are you shooting the Paper so slowly? ---- Dave Marques, Production Nationals, 2005

This is a game of high-speed precision. If you don't precisely plan what you want to happen, there's not much chance that it will. ---- Brian Enos, 2004

#24 Avezorak

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:16 AM


I completely understand, but not having been through RO class isn't a reason to put down someone's opinions. I have taken the time to read and try to understand the rules as best I can. since I have lived in Texas there has only been one chance for an RO class and I'm still waiting reply if there is room left. When I was in Ms for 8 months, zero chance for an RO class. You see sometimes someone not becoming an RO isn't because they don't have an understanding and desire to understand the rules, it's just RO classes are not like local matches that are held every month on a regular basis.

Neither are Nationals or area matches.....

I fail to see you point here.
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#25 Sean Gaines

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:35 AM

I agree with Corey!


I am suprised with all the technology out there, that we can't just take an interactive online course, and get certified. Are there things that need to change? I am sure there are, because this sport is so dynamic. With new props, new gadgets comming out, we have to be flexible and be able to adapt to the new times.

Couple Examples:

Palm scoring system, or any computer scoring device
new props, maybe getting approval prior to shooting them.
foreign competitiors and classifications.

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