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Is this stage "too hard." for a match?


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#1 Seale

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:51 PM

I've mentioned this stage several times to MD and I always seem to get beat down over it as they believe it would be "Too hard, discouraging, get me beat up, etc". Whats your opinion? Would you cry a river or maybe find something you need to practice more? (I didnt see where to post a poll, would be handy)

Three strings. Open targets.

1st string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-1 , mandatory mag change and engage Pepper popper, freestyle. T-1 & PP will be at 50 yds.

2nd string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-2 , mandatory mag change and engage US Popper, strong hand only. T-2 and USP will be at 25 yds.

3rd string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-3 and engage steel plate, weak hand only. T-3 and plate will be at 10yds.


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#2 leas327

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:12 PM

It would be hard. But that is not why I wouldn't want to shoot it. It seems kind of boring to me. Every shooter would have to shoot it the same way. With three strings and the longest shots at 50 yds it would take a ton of time to run a squad and not much shooting would get done.

If you want to stretch out the yardage try having more paper up close and a couple pieces of steel out at 50. That way while the RO and score keeper are scoring the paper a couple of guys can walk out and reset the steel.

Edited by leas327, 15 October 2012 - 05:13 PM.

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#3 yoshidaex

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:37 PM

Sounds like a classifier.......

#4 Seale

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:22 PM

Sounds like a classifier.......


Id like to see it as such. As for the fun factor, I like fun as much as the next guy. A contest of skill can be fun in itself. This sport use to lean more toward skill than the always seen hose fest these days. (Not a bad thing at times)
"Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster then thoes who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and thoes that wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun'.
And Lord if today is truly the day that you call me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass..."

#5 HRider

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:55 PM

I like it, you just need to pitch it to them with no-shoots behind the poppers, then concede to remove the no-shoots to "level the field" :roflol:
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#6 jdphotoguy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:10 PM

Sounds like a classifier.......


I'd have to agree. There are several Classifier stages out to 50yrds. Just suggest they have one of them at a match.

#7 PKT1106

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:04 AM

What about making it one string with 3 shooting boxes and a mag change in between each shooting box? Each box will have it's own targets. Keep all the paper at 10-15 yds and have 50yd steel for each shooting box?
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#8 sperman

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

If this is for a USPSA match, it isn't legal. The only courses of fire that allows multiple strings are Classifiers and Standard Exercises. Standard Exercises must be scored Fixed Time or Virginia Count, which means no steel.

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#9 Nik Habicht

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:05 AM

If this is for a USPSA match, it isn't legal. The only courses of fire that allows multiple strings are Classifiers and Standard Exercises. Standard Exercises must be scored Fixed Time or Virginia Count, which means no steel.

Yep......

And the weakhand string is way too easy..... :devil: :devil:

Double that distance, and maybe slap some hard cover on the paper.... :devil: :devil:
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#10 Seale

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

I like it, you just need to pitch it to them with no-shoots behind the poppers, then concede to remove the no-shoots to "level the field" :roflol:
Hurley


I like the way you think. Too funny!


If this is for a USPSA match, it isn't legal. The only courses of fire that allows multiple strings are Classifiers and Standard Exercises. Standard Exercises must be scored Fixed Time or Virginia Count, which means no steel.


I didnt think of the steel being an issue. Humn
"Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster then thoes who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and thoes that wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun'.
And Lord if today is truly the day that you call me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass..."

#11 Poppa Bear

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:22 PM

Set up two walls to divide the shooting area into 3 arrays. Score it best 6 per paper and steel. Even open shooters will do a mag change at least once.

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#12 Nate

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

I always want to make sure there won't be a bunch of zero's on a stage as that does not help sort out the distance between shooters.
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#13 Flexmoney

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

You do need to know your customers. That said, it's not too hard. Some standard-like skills tests are a good thing every now and then. We probably don't get enough of them, really.

You may want to work out the legal issues, then pitch it again. If it scares your MD to shoot that far, then bring the middle and far targets in some.
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#14 bikerburgess

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

I don't think anything is ever TOO hard but then again I have had shooters threaten to burn me at the stake before.
one easy way to make it legal would be to replace the steel targets with paper targets with varying amounts of hard cover and only require 1 hit on them.
for example string 1 shoot 6 on T-1 (full target) reload then shoot 1 on T-2 (zebra target) ect.

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#15 CHA-LEE

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

The only way to really know if its "Too Hard" for your shooters is to use the stage in a match and then see how many shooters can finish the stage without any penalties. My general rule of thumb is that if 50% of the shooters can't complete the stage without shooting penalties (Misses/No Shoots) then its probably too hard for the average skill level that is attending the match.

As for your specific stage, you first need to make it legal. Since you have steel involved with each string you can't make it a Virginia Count stage and mandate that ONLY 6 rounds be shot at the paper. You can make it a Comstock Standards couse and simply state that the best 6 hits per target will be scored. That way the shooters can fire as many shots as they want at each target but only the best 6 will count.

From a match flow and practicality perspective these kind of stages are usually avoided because of the time it takes to actually shoot them and then score/reset them. With a 50 yard target the RO will have to walk at least 100 Yards every shooter to simply score the targets. Then the rest of the squad will have to walk the same distance to tape and reset the steel. On top of that excessive walking around time you also have three seperate strings of fire which wastes a bunch of time.

A good rule of thumb on assessing a stages validity is to realistally be able to shoot, score, and reset the stage within 2 - 3 minutes for the average shooter. Once a stage takes more than 2 - 3 minutes per shooter to complete then the stage ends up being a significant log jam within the match getting multiple squads backed up on the stage.

I think that the majority of the MD's you have proposed this stage to are thinking about the "Squad Log Jam Factor" more than the shooting dificulty of the stage when they assess the validity of using it in a match. I know that I would probably not use a stage like that in the matches I am involved in running due to it taking too long to run shooters through. This stage would probably take 4 - 5 minutes per shooter to complete, which would be way out of line with the 2 - 3 minutes it takes to run through the other stages in the match.

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#16 Bear23

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

I avoid long range stages, they eat up too much time to paste and reset steel. The stage itself isn't too bad, but nothing you couldn't test at 20 or 25 yards.
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#17 IL-SIG

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

What about using mini-paper targets at 25 yards, which would have the basic effect of a target at 50 yards.
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#18 Maksim

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:48 PM

I personally dislike stages like this unless it is a classifier. Especially where there is only one way to shoot them.

Agree with all the other comments, 3 strings, too many shots at individual targets means more target replacements, more time wasted walking, 3 strings will mean on average of 40 seconds to a 1 min of shooting, plus the make ready plus unload, plus the time in between strings.
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#19 sperman

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:07 AM

What about using mini-paper targets at 25 yards, which would have the basic effect of a target at 50 yards.


Mini targets are legal in IPSC, but not USPSA.

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#20 Sam

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

As my friend Ron Ankeny likes to say: " sometimes, you gotta make 'em eat their vegetables." It's always more fun if we just shoot the stage. Judging a stage as "easy or hard" is never productive.
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#21 Flexmoney

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:08 AM

As my friend Ron Ankeny likes to say: " sometimes, you gotta make 'em eat their vegetables." It's always more fun if we just shoot the stage. Judging a stage as "easy or hard" is never productive.


I am stealing that line. :)
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#22 Alaskapopo

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

I've mentioned this stage several times to MD and I always seem to get beat down over it as they believe it would be "Too hard, discouraging, get me beat up, etc". Whats your opinion? Would you cry a river or maybe find something you need to practice more? (I didnt see where to post a poll, would be handy)

Three strings. Open targets.

1st string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-1 , mandatory mag change and engage Pepper popper, freestyle. T-1 & PP will be at 50 yds.

2nd string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-2 , mandatory mag change and engage US Popper, strong hand only. T-2 and USP will be at 25 yds.

3rd string: At signal fire 6 rds at T-3 and engage steel plate, weak hand only. T-3 and plate will be at 10yds.


:eatdrink:


I like it. Also every match should have some straight forward skills based stages like this.
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#23 Graham Smith

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

The only courses of fire that allows multiple strings are Classifiers and Standard Exercises.

I don't think I knew that. I can see from the rules that the only mention of multiple strings is for those two things, but I don't see anything that specifically says you can't do it. Interesting.
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#24 sperman

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:44 AM

Good point. A "Speed Shoot" specifically states only 1 string, but "Short", "Medium" and "Long Course" do not.

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