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Directing Attention to Stop Time


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#1 mudman

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:45 PM

From an article about the “stopped clock illusion” and how our attention influences the perception of time:

“Rapid eye movements create a break in information, which needs to be covered up. Always keen to hide its tracks, the brain fills in this gap with whatever comes after the break.

Normally this subterfuge is undetectable, but if you happen to move your eyes to something that is moving with precise regularity – like a clock – you will spot this pause in the form of an extra long “second”…

It doesn't have to be an eye movement that generates the stopped clock – all that appears to be important is that you shift your attention. (Although moving our eyes is the most obvious way we shift our attention, I'm guessing that the “inner eye” has gaps in processing in the same way our outer eyes do, and these are what cause the stopped clock illusion.)…

These, and other illusions show that something as basic as the experience of time passing is constructed by our brains – and that this is based on what we experience and what seems the most likely explanation for those experiences, rather than some reliable internal signal. Like with everything else, what we experience is our brain's best guess about the world…”

Full article is here: http://www.bbc.com/f...ime-stand-still

The article got me thinking about how the perception of time seems to change when shooting a stage “in the zone” – those runs where you don’t consciously have to do anything, and even though they feel slow they’re fast on the clock.

I’m not nearly smart enough to begin to tie the two together, but I suspect the pieces fit together somehow. Hopefully this will trigger something in the more intelligent folks here.

#2 benos

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

From experience, the presence and strength of passing time is directly proportional to the presence and strength of the sense of self.

Or: Sense of self equals time.

When, as we are trashing a stage, we are thinking - I can't believe I'm trying to go to fast, AGAIN - our sense of self and time is at it's all time high.

Our think of countless other examples. Whenever desire (time in the sense of wishing things were different from what they are) is present, in any form, the sense of self is burdening.

On the other hand, as we effortlessly navigate a stage, nailing all the points in the quickest time we are capable of, during the performance, there was no sense of passing time at all. That is a beautiful place to disappear into.
be
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#3 mudman

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

Thank you for sharing your experience, Brian. :cheers: You have a gift for making the profound sound simple!

This stuff is fascinating...

mudman

#4 Sam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:27 AM

Beautiful post, Brian! Time is an illusion. It cannot be proven to exist outside of human experience.
Everyone claims to experience time, in one way or another. But, how do we know what that it holds the same value for each of us?
Yes, Ego must be present for time to have a Mental yardstick. My dog can sense love and also fear. For, these emotions actually produce brain wave activity. But, time lacks a source of energy, so it has no substance. Or to state it another way, eternity lives. But, time is dead.
The world can appear to be so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers, and even cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels along with us, and though distant, is close to us in kindred spirit - this makes the earth seem like a 'peopled garden.' - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

#5 BillD

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

Beautiful post, Brian! Time is an illusion. It cannot be proven to exist outside of human experience.
Everyone claims to experience time, in one way or another. But, how do we know what that it holds the same value for each of us?
Yes, Ego must be present for time to have a Mental yardstick. My dog can sense love and also fear. For, these emotions actually produce brain wave activity. But, time lacks a source of energy, so it has no substance. Or to state it another way, eternity lives. But, time is dead.



If time is an illusion, why after 50 years of this illusion do I suddenly have to start shaving my ears....

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#6 Sam

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:43 PM

Because you believe....
The world can appear to be so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers, and even cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels along with us, and though distant, is close to us in kindred spirit - this makes the earth seem like a 'peopled garden.' - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

#7 kevinj308

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:18 AM

From an article about the "stopped clock illusion" and how our attention influences the perception of time:

"Rapid eye movements create a break in information, which needs to be covered up. Always keen to hide its tracks, the brain fills in this gap with whatever comes after the break.

Normally this subterfuge is undetectable, but if you happen to move your eyes to something that is moving with precise regularity – like a clock – you will spot this pause in the form of an extra long "second"…

It doesn't have to be an eye movement that generates the stopped clock – all that appears to be important is that you shift your attention. (Although moving our eyes is the most obvious way we shift our attention, I'm guessing that the "inner eye" has gaps in processing in the same way our outer eyes do, and these are what cause the stopped clock illusion.)…

These, and other illusions show that something as basic as the experience of time passing is constructed by our brains – and that this is based on what we experience and what seems the most likely explanation for those experiences, rather than some reliable internal signal. Like with everything else, what we experience is our brain's best guess about the world…"

Full article is here: http://www.bbc.com/f...ime-stand-still

The article got me thinking about how the perception of time seems to change when shooting a stage "in the zone" – those runs where you don't consciously have to do anything, and even though they feel slow they're fast on the clock.

I'm not nearly smart enough to begin to tie the two together, but I suspect the pieces fit together somehow. Hopefully this will trigger something in the more intelligent folks here.


The way the sub conscious fills in gaps for our conscious is a little scary to me. There's a great book called "Incognito" by David Eagleman. I found it fascinating, and frightening. I had no idea how much was going on behind the scenes, and how it affected my perception of "reality". You know like I coulda sworn I put two in that A zone, when I totally FTE'd. The brain's a pretty cool thing. "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell is good on that subject as well.

I'm not sure this isn't a thread drift, sorry if it is. But CNN had an article the other day about the movie "Looper". I haven't seen it, but it's got time travel as an element. So they interviewed a physicist about the realities of that.
Here's the interview Looper time travel

One of the things the scientist said blew me away. I didn't know that they had to preadjust the atomic clocks in gps satellites so that they would still be relative to a clock on earth. The speed at which they're moving means a tick on the clock for the satellite is different from a tick on the clock here on stationary surface of the earth.
So I googled it and got this gps clock differential

Dude, I'm just a mechanic. This stuff totally blows my mind. But I don't think of time, or the passage of it in nearly the same way I did. If time can be affected by physical forces like speed or gravity then how finite or tangible is it anyway?

#8 Ultimo-Hombre

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:10 PM

So according to special relativity, as the velocity of my bullet is faster therefore time elapses slower on the bullet. A theoretical passenger on the bullet would perceive my motions as sped up relative to his timer. So if I imagine my movement relative to the perception of space time vs. the bullet I am moving fast. Therefore I can slow down and ensure my movement is deliberate and perfect knowing that special relativity will provide for the speed I desire.

I am sure that made no sense to anyone but me, but hey I have a new thing to think about in church today.

#9 BillD

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:14 AM

Beautiful post, Brian! Time is an illusion. It cannot be proven to exist outside of human experience.
Everyone claims to experience time, in one way or another. But, how do we know what that it holds the same value for each of us?
Yes, Ego must be present for time to have a Mental yardstick. My dog can sense love and also fear. For, these emotions actually produce brain wave activity. But, time lacks a source of energy, so it has no substance. Or to state it another way, eternity lives. But, time is dead.


Time is an illusion? I'm not sure about where you shoot but when I get done with a COF, they have a time for me and it's not an illusion, it's right there on the timer and they put it on my scorecard.

Physics is nice, quantom theory is nice, time as an illusion is great. not sure how any of them help with my shooting. Other than not to think about time and shoot as fast as I can see my sights.

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"You have to allow a man his illusions."


#10 Sam

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:34 PM

Hahaha! I love these threads! We live in a 3D world. Time is the 4th deminsion! It only exists, in the human mind. I've read various exlpainations of why the mind creates time. But, it's really only useful to understand that the mind does create it.

The universe exists outside of time. I think my dog does too... :roflol:

When time seems to disappear.... we are in a place of no mind. There is always a conflict when we are directed by the mind. The mind makes maps from previous experiences. Especially, when we compare our past shooting experiences with the shooting that we are doing in the present. These maps are inaccurate....because, as Heraclitus observed, no man steps into the same river twice.

The reason that an absence of time seems so scary, is that the egoic mind cannot exist without time. So, the egoic mind can interpret a lack of time as.... death. At some level all fear is a fear of death. (hey, what's the worst thing that can happen? uh..you die!) The fact is you cannot die! Our consciousness is eternal. Science has proven conclusively that consciousness does not reside within the body, but is only associated with it. Shooting is cool, because, for someof us, it is a pathway to the realm outside of time.... A glimpse of reality.....
The world can appear to be so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers, and even cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels along with us, and though distant, is close to us in kindred spirit - this makes the earth seem like a 'peopled garden.' - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

#11 daves_not_here

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:35 AM


Everyone claims to experience time, in one way or another.... Yes, Ego must be present for time to have a Mental yardstick...But, time lacks a source of energy, so it has no substance...


Time is an illusion? I'm not sure about where you shoot but when I get done with a COF, they have a time for me and it's not an illusion, it's right there on the timer and they put it on my scorecard.

Physics is nice, quantom theory is nice, time as an illusion is great. not sure how any of them help with my shooting. Other than not to think about time and shoot as fast as I can see my sights.


Inside out look at time...


Time is an illusion??? I see the logic but I don’t really buy into it because time is a useful concept and it can be measured. However, I believe the feeling of fast or slow is something we make up and is an illusion.

We think of life terms of "moments". We put these moments together and call it "reality" or "time". This way we can “think” about and then “analyze” and “understand” things that unfold in our realities.


If we don’t have to do the "thinking" and “analyzing” what can we do?
We don't have to rely on "moments" e.g. sight lift, transitions etc. to “analyze” and take action on what we sense. Removing the moments removes the sense of time. So we need to stop thinking and analyzing to stop time.

It’s been measured in elite athletes that the “thinking” and “analyzing” parts of their brains aren’t being used as much a mid level athletes. This resulted in faster times for their tasks. This can be considered evidence that the not thinking concept is valid.

When not thinking we "watch" things unfold because we are witnessing the actual creation of “events”. We can be involved and active while not “thinking”.

There is a subtle difference between “watching” and “analyzing”. The difference is mostly the baggage in “analyzing” that involves perceiving, identifying, labeling, creating a thought, evaluating that thought and then deciding what to do. After all the analyzing action is finally taken.

Okay, so what the heck am I trying to say?
Time is created from the moments we create in our brains by thinking. Time does not exist if we don’t have the moments. There is no fast or slow.

We can make the acceptable sight picture and when the ego judges it’s acceptable move the finger to press the trigger.

-OR-

Watch the acceptable sight picture while the gun goes bang.

That’s my current take on the matter.

DNH

Edited by daves_not_here, 30 November 2012 - 09:43 AM.


#12 Not-So-Mad Matt

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

It’s been measured in elite athletes that the “thinking” and “analyzing” parts of their brains aren’t being used as much a mid level athletes. This resulted in faster times for their tasks. This can be considered evidence that the not thinking concept is valid.

I believe it's more accurate to say that elite athletes don't consciously think and analyze as much while playing, because they don't need to think and analyze as much. If you're not as skilled, you can't (yet) trust your instincts.

#13 daves_not_here

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:11 PM


It’s been measured in elite athletes that the “thinking” and “analyzing” parts of their brains aren’t being used as much a mid level athletes. This resulted in faster times for their tasks. This can be considered evidence that the not thinking concept is valid.

I believe it's more accurate to say that elite athletes don't consciously think and analyze as much while playing, because they don't need to think and analyze as much. If you're not as skilled, you can't (yet) trust your instincts.


You bring up an interesting point. How much thinking is needed? That would be different for different levels of shooters.

Similar to removing unnecessary movement during a stage is quicker, removing unnecessary thinking is also quicker. I think we can sum it up by calling it mental efficiency. That might be a good topic for another thread...

It's interesting because we hear about visual patience, physical efficiency and now mental efficiency. Where is the "tense up and rush" approach? There's a lot of people doing it... :roflol:

DNH

P.S. Have you been to any matches lately? I'm taking a break until January.

Edited by daves_not_here, 30 November 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#14 Not-So-Mad Matt

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:15 AM

How much thinking is needed? That would be different for different levels of shooters.

Exactly. The more you've shot, the less conscious thought it requires to shoot. The more stages you've run through, the less conscious thought it takes you to run through stages and remember the "gotchas" of the game. (Further, the more stages you've visualized, the easier it is to visualize stages, and the less thought you need to apply during the stage.)

But you can't skip straight to zen-like not-thinking on a learned skill you haven't learned yet.

P.S. Have you been to any matches lately? I'm taking a break until January.

Real life has intruded, and I haven't competed in a while -- and now the holidays are upon us. I'll be dry-firing for the rest of the year, I suppose.

#15 Steve Anderson

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

When, as we are trashing a stage, we are thinking - I can't believe I'm trying to go to fast, AGAIN - our sense of self and time is at it's all time high.

Our think of countless other examples. Whenever desire (time in the sense of wishing things were different from what they are) is present, in any form, the sense of self is burdening.

On the other hand, as we effortlessly navigate a stage, nailing all the points in the quickest time we are capable of, during the performance, there was no sense of passing time at all. That is a beautiful place to disappear into.
be

Oh my... this is like Christmas for me. Another round of calling the shot is all you need VS. Conscious control of speed.

Instead of trying to explain it again, let me ask a question or two

What if you could score your entire stage from unload and show clear?

What would you have to do in order to do that?

If you were able to do that (and crucially, DECIDED to do that) what sort of shenanigans could your conscious mind get into to trip you up the way it loves to do?

(the answer to #3 is: none)
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#16 Sam

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

If you were able to do that (and crucially, DECIDED to do that) what sort of shenanigans could your conscious mind get into to trip you up the way it loves to do?

Steve, that's a great way of looking at the question!

While the human mind is exceedingly clever, it is stuck in a position that requires it to be clever. Going back to some posts I made a few years ago, the terms "conscious" and "sub-conscious" mind, don't work too well for me. The way I understand my own existence, my consciousness and my mind are not the same thing. My consciousness is me and my mind is my ego's own reflection of me. My ego (mind) is a mirror, an illusion. For example, my body needs food. I eat the right amount of the right stuff and my body is satisfied. But, my mind wants to always be in control of my body, so it tells me to eat until it is satisfied. This is why so many people fail to control their own body mass. Their mind ain't connected to their ass, but it sure make them believe that it is. So, they allow their imagination (mind) to tell them when and what to eat.

Remember that little prick behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz? That's my mind! :roflol:

OK, getting back to your original questions......my mind will pull shenanigans along the lines of illusions. ALWAYS!! It is very clever at illusions, but it is also a one trick pony, in that, illusions are the only tool it has in the tool box. So, how will it use illusions to trip up my shooting? Time, the biggest illusion. The false idea that there is any other time but the present. Attempts to wrest control from the body, like my hands shaking on the first stage. Tricking me into not seeing what is there.

Careful....the lives of many people are built upon illusions. They are extremely powerful, like that little pick behind the curtain. So, we can only talk about illusions as they relate to the game of shooting. :bow:
The world can appear to be so empty if one thinks only of mountains, rivers, and even cities; but to know someone here and there who thinks and feels along with us, and though distant, is close to us in kindred spirit - this makes the earth seem like a 'peopled garden.' - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

#17 daves_not_here

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

What if you could score your entire stage from unload and show clear?

What would you have to do in order to do that?

If you were able to do that (and crucially, DECIDED to do that) what sort of shenanigans could your conscious mind get into to trip you up the way it loves to do?

(the answer to #3 is: none)


Steve, thanks for the Christmas present...

These forums are a serious time sink. I'm finding all discussions become circular.

Make gun go bang while adequately aligned with target. Nothing else. Kinda zen in a way.

Going to work.

DNH

#18 jcarpenter82

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think I got cross eyed trying to read and comprehend all this.

Ready for Zen I am not..me thinks

#19 benos

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

I think I got cross eyed trying to read and comprehend all this.

Ready for Zen I am not..me thinks

Zen comes down to just paying attention.
:cheers:
Man's greatest power is the capacity to direct attention. If you created it you can change it; otherwise, forget it.

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#20 jcarpenter82

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:30 PM

I was in the Zen zone 50% of the stages yesturday. Need to work on that.

#21 Siphon Odesse

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:19 AM

On the other hand, as we effortlessly navigate a stage, nailing all the points in the quickest time we are capable of, during the performance, there was no sense of passing time at all. That is a beautiful place to disappear into.
be


+1.
Some coaches / advisors / therapists suggest that we recall or summon a particularly beautiful place or event or state of mind ( real or imagined) and experience or re-live the pleasant feeling it gave us, in order to work towards being in the present or otherwise free ourselves of emotions that are pulling us down.
My place is when I totally nailed a bank of steel in a Rio Salado Tuesday match, one hundred years ago.
Didn't last long ( on the clock) and at the time, it just .. was. In retrospect, it's a happy memory and indeed a beautiful place.
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