41 replies to this topic

[ProGunGuy]

here is another cover question. I have been told that warning people of cover is just a courtesy, and not required by the rule book.

Is this correct?

thanks

From the book:

"Safety Officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly
should shout the command “COVER”. The shooter should
immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many
shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able
to warn the shooter in time. Therefore, if the Safety Officer did
not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the
shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter
still earns a procedural error."

Also, if the shooter does not respond to the cover call and fires, he earns himself a procedural.

thanks

is this from the SO rule book? I was told the exact opposite from a few of the SO's at the clubs I shoot at.

[mike l m]

bogus cover call 1

Maybe bogus call 2

what do you think? First guy never moved his feet or legs and I heard cover?? Second guy the camera perspective makes it tough to tell but he looks good to me. This stage was pretty tough I would guess 30% of the shooters got a cover call... I didn't get video nor did I get a cover call but I saw a lot of calls that were very suspect...

I took these from Paul the new guy. I do not see the cover issue here on either videos. Yes they were bogus calls.
Thanks, Mike

[BLUTO]

So, here's what we know:

There is definitely a fault line - perhaps not called so - but a fault line in all aspects and characteristics save name. To avoid pedantic ambiguities, let's just call that point in space "it".

Only the specific SO knows for certain where it is at any given moment in time and space, because, as we know, it moves as you do. Many SOs do not agree where it is, so what really matters is who has the clipboard, as they have the ultimate power in determining it.

Some SOs discuss it privately on stages, some publicly and some not at all, but suffice to say one SO's it is not necessarily another's.

It is especially entertaining at club matches where SOs move with squads, as it - either its absence or existence at any given point in time - creates a highly fluid and dynamic situation - and hence a lively discussion.

This is because sometimes it exists and sometimes it does not on the same stage, its existence being separated only by time. It might not exist when you start, but it appears later. So you don't need to use it at the beginning, but have to in the middle or at the end of a stage. It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless.

Sometimes they tell you beforehand where it is or will be.

Sometimes you have to ask where it is or will be.

Sometimes they answer when you ask with a location; sometimes they'll answer when you ask with the rulebook reference; and sometimes they won't answer at all because "you should know".

Sometimes they tell you during your performance if you are past it. The faster you go, however, the less likely you will know if you are past it "during" because, if you are fast, you must be experienced, and therefore "you should know" where it is. For clarity "fast" means faster than someone else - specifically the someone else who is knowledgeable of it and enforcing the specific rule about it.

Unequivocally, they will always tell you after you are done, when you can't do anything about it.

... and to address any ambiguities and inconsistencies:

Someone, somewhere, at some time in the future will address some, all or none of these issues if they so choose in some way that made sense to them - and is agreed to by someone else (not you). They will tell you when they are done.

Clear?

In the mean time, I ask, I watch and I try to stay away from those places that are probably it as best I can. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not.

It is the nature of the beast.

In summary : it depends, just not on you.


Craig

[seanc]

I have seen it both ways, either no cover at all or absolute cover nazis who yell at you if you are even close to the end of cover. One SO called cover before I got to a shooting position. I even had an SO give me a procedural because he said I shot the stage too fast and I must have not used cover somewhere. Bottom line, as long as we have a rule that requires an SO to make a judgement call instead of a definitive line we will always have problems.

You were definately shooting too fast or intending to do so Dave. Slow down - about 2.0 sec/18 rd. stage ought to make everyone happy.

Craig

I am positive this is true.

[GmanCdp]

So, here's what we know:

There is definitely a fault line - perhaps not called so - but a fault line in all aspects and characteristics save name. To avoid pedantic ambiguities, let's just call that point in space "it".

Only the specific SO knows for certain where it is at any given moment in time and space, because, as we know, it moves as you do. Many SOs do not agree where it is, so what really matters is who has the clipboard, as they have the ultimate power in determining it.

Some SOs discuss it privately on stages, some publicly and some not at all, but suffice to say one SO's it is not necessarily another's.

It is especially entertaining at club matches where SOs move with squads, as it - either its absence or existence at any given point in time - creates a highly fluid and dynamic situation - and hence a lively discussion.

This is because sometimes it exists and sometimes it does not on the same stage, its existence being separated only by time. It might not exist when you start, but it appears later. So you don't need to use it at the beginning, but have to in the middle or at the end of a stage.

It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. Interstingly, though time dependent, it is not consistent - for instance a Revolver shooter would be forced to use it because he has expended 6 rd 2.5 sec into a stage after starting in the open where it did not exist, but a semi auto shooter who took 5.0 seconds to get to expend the same number of rd and arrive at the same location and time point does not need to use it, because it does not exist yet for him. Or, conversely, sometimes revolvers don't need to use it because it does not exist for the first reload, but does for subsequent ones. This may or may not be related to the "fast" attribute below - I'm not really sure.

It is also apparently light sensitive, as flashlight stages sometimes don't require it, but the same stage with the lights on does.

This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless.

Sometimes they tell you beforehand where it is or will be.

Sometimes you have to ask where it is or will be.

Sometimes they answer when you ask with a location; sometimes they'll answer when you ask with the rulebook reference; and sometimes they won't answer at all because "you should know".

Sometimes they tell you during your performance if you are past it. The faster you go, however, the less likely you will know if you are past it "during" because, if you are fast, you must be experienced, and therefore "you should know" where it is. For clarity "fast" means faster than someone else - specifically the someone else who is knowledgeable of it and enforcing the specific rule about it.

Unequivocally, they will always tell you after you are done, when you can't do anything about it.

... and to address any ambiguities and inconsistencies:

Someone, somewhere, at some time in the future will address some, all or none of these issues if they so choose in some way that made sense to them - and is agreed to by someone else (not you). They will tell you when they are done.

Clear?

In the mean time, I ask, I watch and I try to stay away from those places that are probably it as best I can. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not.

It is the nature of the beast.

In summary : it depends, just not on you.


Craig

A perfect example as to why a shooter should use head and shoulders...

[M1911]

Is this from the SO rule book? I was told the exact opposite from a few of the SO's at the clubs I shoot at.

It is in THE rule book. Go to idpa.com, download it, and read it.

[BillD]

Is this from the SO rule book? I was told the exact opposite from a few of the SO's at the clubs I shoot at.

It is in THE rule book. Go to idpa.com, download it, and read it.

Print a couple copies for your SO's also. Obviously they need one.

[Cd662]

"It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless."

Thanks for articulating this observation, Craig. To expand for information's sake, I went to a sanctioned match recently that did not have a lot of revolver shooters. The SO for a stage saw I was shooting revolver and pointed out areas that I apparently could reload at. "This is a reload point. This is also a reload point. But you don't have to be behind cover here, or here. But you do over here." I'm pretty sure it's akin to rolling a dice every time; everyone is going to get banged at some point in time and the likelihood of the penalty being arbitrary is quite likely.

[RickB]

It would certainly clear things up if all courses of fire had designated reloading points - one for every six rounds expended - at cover, but that works only if cover is a place. Otherwise, reloads might take place any- and everywhere, depending on capacity and each shooter's perspective on "cover".

[Hamm]

So, here's what we know:

There is definitely a fault line - perhaps not called so - but a fault line in all aspects and characteristics save name. To avoid pedantic ambiguities, let's just call that point in space "it".

Only the specific SO knows for certain where it is at any given moment in time and space, because, as we know, it moves as you do. Many SOs do not agree where it is, so what really matters is who has the clipboard, as they have the ultimate power in determining it.

Some SOs discuss it privately on stages, some publicly and some not at all, but suffice to say one SO's it is not necessarily another's.

It is especially entertaining at club matches where SOs move with squads, as it - either its absence or existence at any given point in time - creates a highly fluid and dynamic situation - and hence a lively discussion.

This is because sometimes it exists and sometimes it does not on the same stage, its existence being separated only by time. It might not exist when you start, but it appears later. So you don't need to use it at the beginning, but have to in the middle or at the end of a stage.

It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. Interstingly, though time dependent, it is not consistent - for instance a Revolver shooter would be forced to use it because he has expended 6 rd 2.5 sec into a stage after starting in the open where it did not exist, but a semi auto shooter who took 5.0 seconds to get to expend the same number of rd and arrive at the same location and time point does not need to use it, because it does not exist yet for him. Or, conversely, sometimes revolvers don't need to use it because it does not exist for the first reload, but does for subsequent ones. This may or may not be related to the "fast" attribute below - I'm not really sure.

It is also apparently light sensitive, as flashlight stages sometimes don't require it, but the same stage with the lights on does.

This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless.

Sometimes they tell you beforehand where it is or will be.

Sometimes you have to ask where it is or will be.

Sometimes they answer when you ask with a location; sometimes they'll answer when you ask with the rulebook reference; and sometimes they won't answer at all because "you should know".

Sometimes they tell you during your performance if you are past it. The faster you go, however, the less likely you will know if you are past it "during" because, if you are fast, you must be experienced, and therefore "you should know" where it is. For clarity "fast" means faster than someone else - specifically the someone else who is knowledgeable of it and enforcing the specific rule about it.

Unequivocally, they will always tell you after you are done, when you can't do anything about it.

... and to address any ambiguities and inconsistencies:

Someone, somewhere, at some time in the future will address some, all or none of these issues if they so choose in some way that made sense to them - and is agreed to by someone else (not you). They will tell you when they are done.

Clear?

In the mean time, I ask, I watch and I try to stay away from those places that are probably it as best I can. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not.

It is the nature of the beast.

In summary : it depends, just not on you.


Craig

Thanks for filling me in
I am fixing to start playing this game regular
Jason

[shootaglock]

I will say fault lines would make things a lot easier, but does anyone have an idea about how to use them practically.

Say you have a shooting position with 3 targets. Are you going to lay down 3 fault lines? What do you make them out of so you can step on each one as you work around the barrier? Do you limit the spacing of targets so that you only have one fault line per position. That's not someething I would like to see.

Also, cover is not a finite spot for each shooter. It is height dependent. If you set the fault line for a person that is 5'4", then someone 6'2" will not be behind cover if they go to the line. If you set it for the person that is 6'2", then the short person can't see the target, or is at an extreme disadvantage. I've seen it often in uspsa and 3 gun where a fault line makes it easy for a tall person to engage targets and places a short person at a disadvantage b/c they have to get into an extreme lean to engage the target. Luckily our local uspsa MD is shorter than I am.

Given the purpose of cover in IDPA, I just don't see how to implement fault lines across the board. Given some props/target placements they would work great. In other situations, fault lines just aren't practical. Having a finite marker would be great, but how do you achieve that?
"

[Sac Law Man]

One of the problems with clubs that consider themselves cover Nazi's, is SO's becoming over zealous and making so many cover calls that a percentage are not not good calls. Its usually becasue of a a lack of experience on the SO's part. In my opinion, this does more harm than if the club were slighlty lax on their cover calls.

Edited by Sac Law Man, 30 August 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[lugnut]

One of the problems with clubs that consider themselves cover Nazi's, is SO's becoming over zealous and making so many cover calls that a percentage are not not good calls. Its usually becasue of a a lack of experience on the SO's part. In my opinion, this does more harm than if the club were slighlty lax on their cover calls.

I agree. It's not fun for the shooter or "most SOs" to give marginal cover calls. If they are using cover poorly and there is no doubt- they earn a cover call, otherwise let's have fun.

[ckeller]

I agree totally. The SO is supposed to make sure the stages are run correctly and safely. It should not be the goal of the SO to tag as many people as possible with procedurals. Its not fun for the shooter or the SO. I am under the belief that if there is doubt, the benefit of that doubt should go to the shooter. Thats the way i SO anyway.

[Cd662]

"It would certainly clear things up if all courses of fire had designated reloading points - one for every six rounds expended - at cover, but that works only if cover is a place. Otherwise, reloads might take place any- and everywhere, depending on capacity and each shooter's perspective on "cover". "


...seriously? I mean, I saw a RO ding a Master at a sanctioned match recently for invisible, unstipulated "positions" of cover so heck, I guess we're already there.

"I agree totally. The SO is supposed to make sure the stages are run correctly and safely. It should not be the goal of the SO to tag as many people as possible with procedurals. Its not fun for the shooter or the SO. I am under the belief that if there is doubt, the benefit of that doubt should go to the shooter. Thats the way i SO anyway."

Many IDPA stage designers and SOs feel that designing stages intended to give a shooter a procedural is there way to "challenge" the shooter. Shooters who "enjoy" these stages purport some sort of mental flexibility in figuring out the course of fire, which is sort of funny given the style of IDPA stages (dictated, not freestyle).

Bone's post should be mandatory IDPA reading material for anyone posting these questions. I have been coaching a lot of people I know about IDPA since they have the same questions as the OP and they become legitimately confused when they encounter different SO styles and inconsistencies at different local matches and sanctioned matches. The real, de facto reality is that anything can be legitimized and like Craig said, it's after the fact. A lot of the SOs I've encountered become immediately abrasive if you challenge a ruling and are really proud of themselves for "getting another shooter". Read the rule book, memorize the rules, and make peace with this "random penalty" fact.

[lugnut]

"It would certainly clear things up if all courses of fire had designated reloading points - one for every six rounds expended - at cover, but that works only if cover is a place. Otherwise, reloads might take place any- and everywhere, depending on capacity and each shooter's perspective on "cover". "


...seriously? I mean, I saw a RO ding a Master at a sanctioned match recently for invisible, unstipulated "positions" of cover so heck, I guess we're already there.

"I agree totally. The SO is supposed to make sure the stages are run correctly and safely. It should not be the goal of the SO to tag as many people as possible with procedurals. Its not fun for the shooter or the SO. I am under the belief that if there is doubt, the benefit of that doubt should go to the shooter. Thats the way i SO anyway."

Many IDPA stage designers and SOs feel that designing stages intended to give a shooter a procedural is there way to "challenge" the shooter. Shooters who "enjoy" these stages purport some sort of mental flexibility in figuring out the course of fire, which is sort of funny given the style of IDPA stages (dictated, not freestyle).

Bone's post should be mandatory IDPA reading material for anyone posting these questions. I have been coaching a lot of people I know about IDPA since they have the same questions as the OP and they become legitimately confused when they encounter different SO styles and inconsistencies at different local matches and sanctioned matches. The real, de facto reality is that anything can be legitimized and like Craig said, it's after the fact. A lot of the SOs I've encountered become immediately abrasive if you challenge a ruling and are really proud of themselves for "getting another shooter". Read the rule book, memorize the rules, and make peace with this "random penalty" fact.

Let's face it, sometimes refs/umps in sports will call things differently. Sometimes players don't like the calls or strike zone they are using. But in IDPA inconsistencies arise from the definitions (or lack thereof) of "cover" or "position of cover" for reloads- that is where it really gets ugly. Calling cover is relatively straight forward but damn it some SOs really work hard and get out their protractors to call it- complete BS IMO. Equally as bad is when SOs let people blatantly violate cover and don't call it. I can't tell you how many times we discuss these things at our club. It really takes the fun out of it... from a shooter and SO perspective.

[John Z Sr]

I've seen and heard this so many times, to the point it gets really redundant. This is just a game, in my opinion a very good game at the original outset, but it has turned away from that, as many have pointed out before. The current situation being not knowing how you will be called, or "he got a procedural 'cause he shot it too fast and must have broke cover" just takes the true competitiveness out of it. So for myself, I just made the decision to allow my membership to expire, threw away my card, pulled my SO cert of the wall, and no longer shoot idpa. That being said, I wish all those that still shoot idpa all the best, and hope when you get to a larger match, your score will be a true reflection of how well you shot, not what someone thought you shot. Have fun and be safe.