93 replies to this topic

[bigbrowndog]

Barry I'm not disagreeing with you about "steel must fall" but the rules don't say it must fall from its pedestal or stand, or fall to the ground,......just FALL. Your definition of fall and mine are simply different. I also am saying that plates that can spin shouldnt be used. as for the "spinner" target you speak of I personally do not feel the belong in a match, they are too subjective to having the right choke or shot payload for the target.

that said, Kurt and I personally shoot each and every SG plate with CYLINDER bore and 1oz of 8's to ensure that they will fall to a proper hit, you will have to hit them, and hit them completely but they will fall. This is something that we do at every match that we officiate, it is how IPSC handles all of the plate targets for SG. If a target cannot be spun or knocked over using those parameters then we change it until it does or we don't use it. Far too many MD's do not check/calibrate targets prior to official match shooting, and then its too late to change.

As for your slug target ruling being "over ruled" if the match was operating on the premise that a slug on a shot target was a fine and penalty or simply a stage DQ then it was handled properly regardless of what you felt should have happened, those were the rules. since i wasn't there I can't say how i would have handled it.

trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

If it turns from a bad hit its a bad target, period. I have never seen Trapr's angle iron paltes turn and they are about as cheap as it gets for shotgun targets. They aren't that easy to knock down but they don't fail you. You can use thinner angle iron and it falls easier. Maurice and Sharron Griffin started a great match last year at their new club called 3 Mils Right in North Texas. They are using used 3-5" poly pipe from the oilfield. This stuff falls like a clay and its reusable. It is my favorite target thus far.

Edited by Jesse Tischauser, 04 September 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[KentG]

How about a poll.

USPSA Pistol, steel falls
USPSA Pistol, steel gets moved
IMG style rules for multigun steel gets moved
IMG style rules for multigun steel must fall


Me, USPSA pistol as always there is a rule and arbitration.
Me, IMG style rules for multigun steel falls. End of story.

[bpipe95]

Plates should NEVER be used that will turn w/o falling, its just another item on the long list of poor decisions that get made for one reason or another. If the plate were a clay, and a single pellet went thru it w/o breaking and making the clay "fall" its still a dead clay!!!!

Trapr

Of all the am stages at the pro-am we had 1 stage with shotgun targets that would not spin. I had 3 spin on am 6 and another spin on am 1. They were all the same design 3/8th upright with a heavier 1/2" base that was cupped from the heat during welding. On most, when you set the target down on the stand you could feel the high spot in the center was the only real point making contact. Heck I had one spin all the way around and end up with the narrow side facing me.

It was aggravating, but I saw it as a learning experience and now have those same heavy base type of plates being made for me by the local steel target guy.

[barrysuperhawk]

Barry I'm not disagreeing with you <snip>

As for your slug target ruling being "over ruled" if the match was operating on the premise that a slug on a shot target was a fine and penalty or simply a stage DQ then it was handled properly regardless of what you felt should have happened, those were the rules. since i wasn't there I can't say how i would have handled it.

trapr

I know, and like I said, it's not personal. There are alot of target stands out there that don't have the anti-turn technology, so until they are all upgraded, the best we can do as RO's is be consistent. There oughta be a law...

As far as the Slug on the close target, *my* ruling on the spot was stage DQ...but the MD over-ruled me and decided it should only be a procedural and charged him like $20 for the broken stand [I am not sure of the actual $ amount, but it was cheap.] The shooter and MD decided since the rules didn't explicitly say "don't shoot slugs at close steel" that it wasn't against the rules. My position was that it was an unsafe act, and I stand behind my call. That said, the MD is the MD and his opinion is what counts. That's why we have MD's, after all. I was never mad about being over-ruled, I was mad about being right next to a shooter that put a slug into a steel target from 8 yards. It was blind luck that nobody got hurt. Hazards of the job, I guess.

[mpeltier]

The shotgun use in three gun certainly is a differant animal when it comes to targets/scoring/opinions etc. I would like to see a scoring change in the rules at our club to address this. I like the fact that steel can turn with a poorly executed shot. Poor shots are not rewarded with rifle/pistol, why should they with shotgun? We use a time plus scoring system and would propose a scoring value of five seconds for a turned target and no penalty for a fallen target and also ten seconds for an untouched target (our current penalty). Same for clays with hole(5sec) untouched(10sec) and broken(no penalty).

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Same for clays with hole(5sec) untouched(10sec) and broken(no penalty).

So, you think a clay target with a hole in it isn't broken? What if it has two holes, or maybe three?

Edited by Fullauto_Shooter, 05 September 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[mpeltier]

Same for clays with hole(5sec) untouched(10sec) and broken(no penalty).

So, you think a clay target with a hole in it isn't broken? What if it has two holes, or maybe three?

No I dont. Its a very poor shot. And a very innefective shot. What constitues broken in trap or skeet? It is only my opinion but broken to me means multiple pieces above and beyond a few bb holes.

That does not mean that it should not get some value for hitting it with a bb or two (or more) thats why the penalty would not be the same as a total miss.

Edited by mpeltier, 05 September 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[EkuJustice]

Difference in skeet and trap is a couple holes will generally cause a break. A spinning clay breaks alot easier than one sitting there

[RiggerJJ]

And its a lot easier to hit and break a static clay vs a flying one...

All clays should BREAK to score, flying or static.

JJ

[RiggerJJ]

.

Edited by RiggerJJ, 05 September 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[gose]

A spare magazine with 3" 2oz Turkey Loads.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Same for clays with hole(5sec) untouched(10sec) and broken(no penalty).

So, you think a clay target with a hole in it isn't broken? What if it has two holes, or maybe three?

No I dont. Its a very poor shot. And a very innefective shot. What constitues broken in trap or skeet? It is only my opinion but broken to me means multiple pieces above and beyond a few bb holes.

That does not mean that it should not get some value for hitting it with a bb or two (or more) thats why the penalty would not be the same as a total miss.

Moving to this type of scoring will open up a big can of worms for ROs and shooters if you start trying to quantify what "broken" means. Is a chip off the edge broken? What about two chips around the rim (that'd qualify for your definition of multiple pieces)? Doesn't a single BB hole create multiple pieces (the clay plus the portion of the clay that's detached)?

ROs will be put in the position of having to make a LOT of judgment calls based on their own perceptions of what "broken" really is; these perceptions will vary from RO to RO, guaranteed.

On the other hand, a "single BB hole" is pretty easy to understand - the clay either has a hole or it doesn't. The whole idea of what constitues a "broken" clay is wide open to a wide range of interpretation - ROs have a hard enough job without adding this rock to their rucksack.

Edited by Fullauto_Shooter, 05 September 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[landshark45]

If a clay has a hole in it even one hole, how is that not a hit?
Haven't seen a MD that didn't use this rule.

One hole= 1 hit

I agree w fullautoshooter "1 bb is easy to understand"

Edited by landshark45, 05 September 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[gose]

While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand... My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one?

CMMG/Midwest
Plate was laying flat on stand, RO called miss, RM was called in, still a miss. "Plate has to fall".

[barrysuperhawk]

While RO'ing stages, I have seen the shooter hit the stand and drop the plate flat onto the top of the stand... My solution is simple, if it didn't fall, it does not score, and if it is still on the stand, it did not fall.

I've heard this before. If the plate is laying down, it fell. There is nothing in the rules that says plate must fall off stand to score. Just that it must fall. It did. Have you run this past the RMs of the matches you RO, and if so, and they agreed, could you provide a list of these matches so I can make sure I never mistakenly attend one?

CMMG/Midwest
Plate was laying flat on stand, RO called miss, RM was called in, still a miss. "Plate has to fall".

You can actually replicate this condition more easily than turning a trarget. Pound in your stand really tight and then shoot the stand with the target on it. The stand moved just enough to slide out from under the target but then catches it. FWIW the ones I called misses were all pistol targets, not Shotgun.

The shotgun use in three gun certainly is a differant animal when it comes to targets/scoring/opinions etc. I would like to see a scoring change in the rules at our club to address this. I like the fact that steel can turn with a poorly executed shot. Poor shots are not rewarded with rifle/pistol, why should they with shotgun? We use a time plus scoring system and would propose a scoring value of five seconds for a turned target and no penalty for a fallen target and also ten seconds for an untouched target (our current penalty). Same for clays with hole(5sec) untouched(10sec) and broken(no penalty).

I like where you are going, but I would say not to extend this to clays because of the problem stated above. Without changing any of the existing scoring, a turned target could be called a 5 second and a standing [not touched] target 10 sec, and a standing target that wasn't seen or shot at 15 seconds? FTN/FTE penalties have the problem on steel of "I SHOT AT IT". I always used to call a standing steel or a clean paper target as a de-facto FTE [no hits at all = no credit for engaging] but I would get shooters that got hung up on the word "engage" instead of just realizing the terms FTN/FTE are just a way of differintiating the levels of penalty.

[mpeltier]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to high Jack this thread with my scoring ideology for clay targets. I will just say one last bit about it though. Defining it would not be difficult, perhaps its simply defining what a broken clay is not. For example, bb holes or chips are not broken (neutralized) but constitute hits which do receive credit, just not as much as breaks which would be multiple pieces not constituted by bb holes or chips. Now if an RO or competitor can't comprehend that or fairly interpret that, there are many rules in my opinion that are more difficult. I believe their would be less controversy than some imagine as with this scoring method I believe there would be fewer instances of birds left with only a minor hit.

My old truck has a few holes and chips and it ain't broken....

[Ssanders224]

From the NSSA rule book:

13. Dead Target
A target from which, in the sole judgment of the referee, a visible piece is observed before the target hits the ground as a result of having been legally fired upon.
14. Lost Target
A target from which in the sole judgment of the referee no visible piece is broken as a result of having been fired upon.

As far as clay targets, I think trying to pre-determine what is, and what is not a hit is pretty hard.
Much like skeet, I think it should be left up to the referee, or "RO" in our case, to determine weather or not "a visible piece is broken as a result of having been fired upon". Yes, this would mean that ONE bb sized hole would most certainly count as a hit.

In skeet (in which I competed for several years) we do not have the luxury of being able to inspect a target after the shot. Hence, the broken piece usually has to be much bigger than bb sized to be observed by the ref before the target hits the ground. Not the case with a static clay.

Edit:
Apologies for the thread jack, as it really has nothing to do with clay targets, but they had been mentioned several times.

Edited by Ssanders224, 06 September 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Llandaff]

Kurtm got it right.

IPSC shotgun rules expressly forbid metal plates that can turn sideways. Very good rule IMO. Targets can fall, can stay, but cannot turn.


4.3 IPSC Approved Shotgun Targets – Metal
4.3.1 General Rules
4.3.1.1 Metal targets and no-shoots which can accidentally turn edge-on or sideways when hit are
expressly prohibited. Using them may result in withdrawal of IPSC sanction.