37 replies to this topic

[Steve Moneypenny]

IDPA has needed a higher classification than master since it's inception. However after coming back and realizing There is no possible way to obtain this as a normal shooter I don't think it is actually effective at adding a class it's really just an award given to a select few who make it to one of 2 matches per year. Is this effective or would there be a better way... and is there an insight on how/why it was done the way it was.

.... ( i have read the new rules, and want & expect constructive intelligent conversation.

Edited by Steve Moneypenny, 03 June 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Strick]

I don't think it adds much of anything other than more confusion for match staff to wade through (none of the scoring systems has a DM class). Also of the few DM's out there only a couple I have seen actually shoot in the division where they are a DM.

[jmorris]

It's not effective because as you pointed out you can only "bump" to DM at nationals. If all of the divisions were like that IDPA would be Niagara bunch of MM.

[Rob Tompkins]

Can't say if it is effective, but it does have an effect. DM's can only win DC. A the Southern Regionals we had a DM that had the second best score so they did not win DC and were not awarded 1st place MA - the 3rd best socre got that honor.

I doubt this is common but... it is an effect.

[Strick]

Can't say if it is effective, but it does have an effect. DM's can only win DC. A the Southern Regionals we had a DM that had the second best score so they did not win DC and were not awarded 1st place MA - the 3rd best socre got that honor.

I doubt this is common but... it is an effect.

They should not get 1st place MA, they are a DM and that is a different class. If a SS beats an EX the EX doesn't get the SS plague.

[Rob Tompkins]

Can't say if it is effective, but it does have an effect. DM's can only win DC. A the Southern Regionals we had a DM that had the second best score so they did not win DC and were not awarded 1st place MA - the 3rd best socre got that honor.

I doubt this is common but... it is an effect.

They should not get 1st place MA, they are a DM and that is a different class. If a SS beats an EX the EX doesn't get the SS plague.

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

Edited by Rob Tompkins, 04 June 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Strick]

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

[steel1212]

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

Its the way it should be. If your a DM its like being a GM in my opinion. I don't play for 1st GM I play for HOA.

[Mike21STI]

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

Its the way it should be. If your a DM its like being a GM in my opinion. I don't play for 1st GM I play for HOA.

I agree with you, If you make it to the DM level, I doubt you are going to care about a trophy unless it is the DC. Just my opinion, I do think there should be more ways to obtain it than just the Nats and the indoor Nats though.

[pvhendrix]

I agree that GM should take HOA or nothing. I think that was the original idea when there were few GM's. Now the ranking is plentiful, however. If you don't win HOA do/have/will you refuse the 1st GM award?

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

Its the way it should be. If your a DM its like being a GM in my opinion. I don't play for 1st GM I play for HOA.

[Strick]

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

Its the way it should be. If your a DM its like being a GM in my opinion. I don't play for 1st GM I play for HOA.

And a year ago before DM was created why did that not same thinking apply to MA, or why doesn't it apply to MA now? I am not saying I don't agree with that mindset rather I am not sure if it is IDPA's place to say that if you don't win DC then.....well you sucked.

[sirveyr]

Award DM trophies just like any other class.

Edited by sirveyr, 05 June 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[GmanCdp]

My son and i were talking a couple weeks ago about trying to hit the DM status next couple years,he sent me this patch  embrace.gif   66.13K   195 downloads

[steel1212]

You're right, they should not get 1st MA. But they are scored (currently) with the MA's and there is not 1st DM award. The effect is if you are DM its DC or nothing.

That is what IDPA decided when they created the class, DC or nothing. They decided that those shooters don't care about anything except DC.........I am not sure if that is 100% true.

Its the way it should be. If your a DM its like being a GM in my opinion. I don't play for 1st GM I play for HOA.

And a year ago before DM was created why did that not same thinking apply to MA, or why doesn't it apply to MA now? I am not saying I don't agree with that mindset rather I am not sure if it is IDPA's place to say that if you don't win DC then.....well you sucked.

Award DM trophies just like any other class.

What I was getting at is if there is enough GMs to merit an award great but I'm not playing for first GM. To me if there isn't enough DM in that division then you don't get first Master thats just silly. Why create a new class and then say it belongs in the other class?

[TimAustinTX]

Why not make DM something you can classify into?

[Yoder]

Why not make DM something you can classify into?

I agree. This class is specifically set up for factory shooters, which I don't like. I do agree there should be a class above Master when guys are capable of shooting the Classifier in the 60+ second range.

[Steve Moneypenny]

There aren't really many "factory shooters" in IDPA.it's sad really they could have used this to move the sport forward and create a more competitive environment, give those "lack luster and happy to be there" masters something higher to strive for.

[Strick]

If we applied the same criteria to our USPSA brothers, how many GM's would there be and how many would make it to that level in the next 5 years?

Are there shooters that are as competitive as the DM's? Sure, but they have only 2 matches a year to have it all come together. Considering that even if you are a top IDPA shooter you are not guaranteed a slot to those 2 matches it may never happen. The way it is setup now you could have one of the best shooters in the country never become a DM because they either won't shoot or can't shoot nationals.

Just seems very odd to me.

[GrandBoule]

Why not make DM something you can classify into?

It's a broad brush stroke, but my take is this: Through the current classification system, shooters, on average, move up the longer they shoot. Logically, then, the top end gets crowded with time. DM avoids this.

This class is specifically set up for factory shooters, which I don't like

There aren't really many "factory shooters" in IDPA.it's sad really they could have used this to move the sport forward and create a more competitive environment, give those "lack luster and happy to be there" masters something higher to strive for.

Loser talk.

A careless HNT on the last stage at Indoor Nats essentially cost me DM. I'm no factory shooter. I'm in my 3rd year of competition. I have a regular job & family obligations, don't get a chance to shoot all that many local matches, and receive zippo from anyone (let alone a factory) for shooting. And AFAIK, the DC (now a DM) wasn't a factory shooter, either. At the same match, a friend of mine did get a bump to DM, and he's not a factory shooter, either.

IMO, DM is do-able, but you'll certainly have to work for it. Convincing yourself the system's rigged against you ain't gonna get you there.


Tom

[Steve Moneypenny]

First of all, It's nice that you've only been shooting 3 years and made it to a level that took me much longer. I don't think that gives you the right to call me a loser, or challenge my mindset.

I was shooting IDPA nationals, uspsa nationals and many other matches top matches before you ever thought of TRYING IDPA this isn't a "woe me thread" I've been there, done that and will do it again if i so choose. I'm not hung up on classification. hell drop me to marksman I don't care. I haven't shot for anything except HOA ( which isn't even recognized) in the past 10 years anyway.

So you were one of the special people that went to S&W winter nationals. Congrats. Also the fact that Mr. Vogel or Sevigny or many other top shooters in the game didn't shoot that division.

The bottom line is you were close to getting it and that's awesome. however it's STILL a game of chance, that you were in the right division when other people weren't there, that you got accepted into the match because entries are limited into a high profile match.

[GrandBoule]

First of all, It's nice that you've only been shooting 3 years and made it to a level that took me much longer. I don't think that gives you the right to call me a loser, or challenge my mindset.

Sorry, Steve. I wasn't calling anyone a loser - I should've written "sour grapes" instead. After all, you typed a bunch of them ( )


As to your original question, the DM class obviously recognizes the Top Guns in each division, and there are shooters who might actually be motivated by it, so in that way it's effective. And functionally, if the DM doesn't win DC, the Master field is opened a bit. Say the DM has a bad run at a major match. Another Master squeaks by for DC, while you're right behind the DM. You go home with 1st MA. Some "I only shoot for DC" types might think the trophy passé, but many would be very proud of taking a 1st MA trophy home, especially if it's from a major match.



Tom

[sirveyr]

Hmmmm....is it even possible to be dropped to IDPA MM from USPSA GM? That would be f-ing hilarious to see those match results!

[steel1212]

First of all, It's nice that you've only been shooting 3 years and made it to a level that took me much longer. I don't think that gives you the right to call me a loser, or challenge my mindset.

Sorry, Steve. I wasn't calling anyone a loser - I should've written "sour grapes" instead. After all, you typed a bunch of them ( )


As to your original question, the DM class obviously recognizes the Top Guns in each division, and there are shooters who might actually be motivated by it, so in that way it's effective. And functionally, if the DM doesn't win DC, the Master field is opened a bit. Say the DM has a bad run at a major match. Another Master squeaks by for DC, while you're right behind the DM. You go home with 1st MA. Some "I only shoot for DC" types might think the trophy passé, but many would be very proud of taking a 1st MA trophy home, especially if it's from a major match.



Tom

How are you going to be DC but be behind.....Anybody? If your Division Champ didn't you win the division and therefore not 1st anything but DC?

[GrandBoule]

How are you going to be DC but be behind.....Anybody? If your Division Champ didn't you win the division and therefore not 1st anything but DC?

Someone else got DC.


Final times in your division:

1. Master A. Takes home DC trophy

2. DM. Takes home bupkis

3. Master B (you). Takes home 1st MA trophy

[lugnut]

Why not make DM something you can classify into?

I agree. This class is specifically set up for factory shooters, which I don't like. I do agree there should be a class above Master when guys are capable of shooting the Classifier in the 60+ second range.

This is puzzling to me as well. However let's assume some of the best shooters could do the SSP classifier in the 60s range... which we know is something that several can do. I know many local Masters that can get into the high eighties. I'm sure there are some that can do it in the 70s, I just don't know. Where would you make the new DM cut off? 70 secs? The gap between SSP Master and Expert is roughly 20 secs.. but it's a MUCH easier gap than between say 98s and 70s for sure!

And from a selfish standpoint... I'd really not like to have to do any more classifiers. That was a big driving force for me to get to master!

Edited by lugnut, 08 June 2012 - 06:27 AM.