80 replies to this topic

[Trail3]

In 2006 there was some talk about going to the IPSC "turtle" targets. At the 2006 Multi Gun Nationals in Albany, OR., shooters meeting the night befor the match, Michael Voit stated that this is the USA USPSA, we will have head shots as long as I am president. There was a loud roar of approval from the shooters that were present. I have been a supporter of 3 Gun Nation, I even stayed in Vegas an extra day after shooting the 2010 USPSA Multi-Gun, to watch the 4 stage match and final shoot off. I can understand the shoot-n-see type targets for TV viewing, but I'm sure the standard USPSA targets could be made in the shoot-n-see material.

Edited by Trail3, 12 April 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[gose]

In 2006 there was some talk about going to the IPSC "turtle" targets. At the 2006 Multi Gun Nationals in Albany, OR., shooters meeting the night befor the match, Michael Voit stated that this is the USA USPSA, we will have head shots as long as I am president. There was a loud roar of approval from the shooters that were present. I have been a supporter of 3 Gun Nation, I even stayed in Vegas an extra day after shooting the 2010 USPSA Multi-Gun, to watch the 4 stage match and final shoot off. I can understand the shoot-n-see type targets for TV viewing, but I'm sure the standard USPSA targets could be made in the shoot-n-see material.

Has anyone at 3GN actually come out and said its to be PC or is that just everyone's ASSumption?

Birchwood Casey makes a few silhouette type targets already. Also, the shoot-n-c B27 they make is larger than a standard USPSA target, so getting a slab the size of the USPSA target shouldnt be that big of a deal.

My guess is that 3GN went with a circle because they wanted to, not because they had to. They believe it will look better and more PC on TV than a USPSA or silhouette target? Sure, its their show and their call, I respect that, I just hope that MDs for all other matches dont feel the urgent need to try to be as PC and adopt the cardboard version of it...

Edited by gose, 12 April 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[DyNo!]

Is this the appropriate place for this discussion? It seems like we're off the topic of the original post - that these targets are now available from MGM targets...

[Bryan 45]

I want to shoot at bunnies. Little, fluffy, soft bunnies. Of course, reset would be a mess. But, they would show hits well.

[Dan Sierpina]

I want to shoot at bunnies. Little, fluffy, soft bunnies. Of course, reset would be a mess. But, they would show hits well.

You did mention comic relief was part of the criteria of your selction for that series.

[actionshooter]

I want to shoot at bunnies. Little, fluffy, soft bunnies. Of course, reset would be a mess. But, they would show hits well.

Bryan for 3-gun president..........this is awesome

[Dan Sierpina]

Wow, this started as some information concerning target availablity, and it's grown into the end of our hobby, or so it seems.
I surely don't have the time in 3 gun matches that some here have, nor, am I at the top of the heap at the matches I do attend. However opinions, are like noses, we all have one.
3 Gun Nation is an offshoot of our beloved 3 gun game. It's claim to fame is the large purses of cash, and increased visiblity to people that have no idea that this shooting sport exists. The visibility will never change the minds of people that hate firearms of any sort, it can however, show to those that participate in other shooting sports, that the "black rifle" does really have some credibility for competition. I truly think that this group needs to be brought in under the shooting sports umbrella. Many of them do not hunt, or shoot other games, and will sacrifice those that do not compete as they do.
Now, since 3 Gun Nation targets have no "head" many lament the compromise to political correctness. A compromise can not exist without one side giving up it's position, surrender if you will. If you don't like those targets, don't participate in the series, very simple isn't it? Wait a minute, all the plates, texas stars, Colt speed plates, stationary clays, etc. have no heads either! Yet, we happily engage them, some not so happily.
Others have stated, that targets are targets, with those, I agree. I have shot at bowling pins, cardboard (mostly with heads and some without) and steel of various shapes and sizes, and lots of circles! Those included bullseye leagues and matches, and highpower. Yet, action shooting has always called me back. The speed of the top shooters, different solutions to the problem put forth, and the people that also love the game, that's the reason I return, as do many others.
So, if you really dislike the circle in a square target, don't shoot the series at any level. It's 3 Gun Nation's game, their rules. Remember, it's made for TV, and our game will outlast ratings.
To the driving force of 3 Gun Nation, I appreciate all that you can bring to the game! MGM Targets, thank you for providing the practice material for the shooters to excell in the game we all love.

[P.E. Kelley]

Very well stated Dan!

Thank you.

[StealthyBlagga]

I will post what I posted over at the 3-Gun Nation/AR15.com website:

IMHO there is too much "liberal political correctness" about those targets for my liking. I'll stick with IPSC Metric targets thanks.

The practical shooting sports have ALWAYS been rooted in armed combat, just like karate or other martial arts. The fact that they are more sport than training does not negate the importance of principles. I'm as much of an "it's a sport stupid" guy as anyone - I loath IDPA because it is so dull and prescriptive - but equally I see the value of the sport's martial heritage in attracting new participation, and in anchoring our match design to some basic guidelines. If we sacrifice all martial links, we will find our match designs going in all kinds of random directions that will not be good for the sport. These targets, which I suspect come from the PC mindset of the NBC network, are symbolic of this potentially negative trend.

I enjoy 3-Gun as a sport and do not kid myself that it is any kind of tactical training. However, the martial origins of the sport make it much more interesting; they drive the "scenario based" stage designs that are different for every match (I find Bianchi Cup tiresome precisely because it is always the same); they drive the equipment rules (constraints in the "tactical" divisions clearly derive from combat-appropriate equipment); they drive the ammo (full powered centerfire vs. rimfire target ammo).

I am old enough to have seen other shooting sports go down the path of political correctness in the hope that it will somehow make the anti-gunners accept the sport. I immigrated to the US from the UK, where our own National Rifle Association threw pretty much all other shooting sports under the bus in the late 90s in order to save (for a short time anyway) their beloved single-shot bolt-action rifles for their own High Power discipline. Hell, you only have to look at how the Olympics have changed - disciplines that used to involve full-power centerfire guns have migrates over the decades to .22 short and (increasingly) airguns. With these changes, global governments have felt increasingly justified in ratcheting the restrictions on civilian access to firearms.

I can understand how top competitors might dream of growing the $$$ coming into the sport by making it more socially acceptable - who wouldn't like to be a full-time pro shooter. I just disagree that diluting the origins of the sport is a good idea, and would hate to see 3-Gun going down that path. You only have to look at IPSC President Nick Alexakos' vain attempts to get Practical Pistol accepted as an Olympic sport... after years of PC compromises, including the hideous IPSC Classic target that is now universal outside the US, we are no closer to Olympic respectability than we were when I shot my first match in 1983.

I like the sport of 3-Gun just fine the way it is and, given its current growth curve, I suspect many others feel the same way. Ultimately, the market will decide - if match directors feel the need to become more politically correct, and this makes their match more popular, then the sport will go that way. If folks prefer matches with traditional "humanoid" targets, then those will be more popular. We will see

As an added comment, I realize that we already have non-humanoid targets (clays, plates etc.) sprinkled around our matches. There is just something different about the idea of eliminating humanoid IPSC Metric targets... it seems like we would be crossing a line in the sand.

Edited by StealthyBlagga, 15 April 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Jadeslade]

Nice post Richard. I posed a somewhat rhetorical question early in this post. " Why would we buy that -it is square", with the hope of some explanation or justification. I really didn't anticipate the stream of negativity. When I first saw these targets I thought, well here is something that could actually be shot once-just put a single shot on it-it is an easier A zone-and I also thought red reticles will wash out. I haven't had time to check the speed and accuracy-we all know that double tapping paper is the way to go on most IPSC targets with IMGA type rules.... That said, I like head shots and the standard metric and classic metric. I hate those up and down monsters that melted my barrel. Still waiting for the reason behind the square targets. I know targets are targets.... Like I date supermodels because I can. So 3GN can use whatever targets because they can. That doesn't get universal support because we shooters are a rational, thoughtful group and stuff like targets needs a rational thoughtful reason. I like your analogies.

[shred]

I shot these for the first time the other day. I'm not real keen on them, but they do have some advantages

1- Less surface area. This slows down the wild hosing at 2-hits-anywhere matches as well as reducing the "A-zone" somewhat (if you use the center-circle for that). They should be much cheaper to boot.
2- Nothing to get floppy in the rain. We had some mist/rain and except for bowing of the targets, they were still shootable.

Downsides:

- I don't see the N/S thing working out well, due to:
- The lack of non-scoring border, which is also a problem for anywhere-on-paper scoring edge hits.
- The centered circles greatly reduce the challenge of finding the proper aiming point on a single-colored target at speed.

[lmccrock]

I also shot them the first time the other day. As I said on the 3GN forum, I do not like them because they are smaller.

- The lack of non-scoring border, which is also a problem for anywhere-on-paper scoring edge hits.

The bigger circle is recessed from the edge so the corners and edges are not supposed to be scored. 3GN only scores the circles, not to the edge of the cardboard as we did.

[PistoleroJesse]

They should cost less because they use less cardboard and have less scoring perfs.

If they cost the same, I don't see why any local club would use them.

[dcloudy777]

I do like that you can use old pizza boxes as practice targets!

DanO

[Dave Campbell]

Thanks, I knew they reminded of something.

First Turtle targets, now Pizza targets.

Whats next, and why do the targets always get smaller?
I like to hose, If I really wanted to aim, I'd shoot idpa.

[caz41]

Everyone will be lined up outside of Dominos and Pizzahut looking for old boxes to use for practice. The only question I have is how easily can you see a grease ring through cheese and pizza sauce?

[Chuck Anderson]

Everyone will be lined up outside of Dominos and Pizzahut looking for old boxes to use for practice. The only question I have is how easily can you see a grease ring through cheese and pizza sauce?

Last pizza box I looked at there was no problem seeing a grease ring. About the size of a pizza.

[DyNo!]

Everyone will be lined up outside of Dominos and Pizzahut looking for old boxes to use for practice. The only question I have is how easily can you see a grease ring through cheese and pizza sauce?

Last pizza box I looked at there was no problem seeing a grease ring. About the size of a pizza.

That's just the 8" scoring border.

[Stlhead]

I think that the bunny idea deserves more exploration. The random movement element, as well as the edible target factor ranks high in my book. But would you have to clean it on the clock?

[P.E. Kelley]

I think that the bunny idea deserves more exploration. The random movement element, as well as the edible target factor ranks high in my book. But would you have to clean it on the clock?

Only in Tropper Division.

[Stlhead]

If Travis puts out edible targets for the troopers, I will forsake limited and return to trooper!

[AlamoShooter]

Everyone will be lined up outside of Dominos and Pizzahut looking for old boxes to use for practice. The only question I have is how easily can you see a grease ring through cheese and pizza sauce?

That way we can bring Cock Roaches to the shooting range. the boxes are full of eggs

[mike cyrwus]

Where can we get official overlays?

[Chivas]

Where can we get official overlays?

From what I understand Birchwood Casey made them special for 3GN. I do not think you can get them. You can buy the 17.25 black shoot n'c and put an 8" Target Spot over the Black 17.25 one. I think that is as close as you can get.

[kurtm]

Is it only me that I find the Kimber ads so damn funny.....bulls eye target on a hay bail and a guy holding a timer??? TSFSRT