53 replies to this topic

[JeremyV]

I have been working on speeding up my mag changes and I start the timer and aim at a target 15 yards away finger on the trigger like I had just finished my last shot when the timer beeps I hit the mag release and drop my mag and draw a new one. The timer stops when the mag slams home.
I have not yet been to my first competition and was wondering what kind of times I should be shooting for? I started out really slow and have done thousands of reps and am speeding things up now but trying to keep them smooth. I am using an xdm 5.25 9mm that is stock so no magwell or anything.

I am just wondering what the average speed is and what super fast is? I just want to have some goals.


Thanks

Jeremy

[lumpygravy]

For your first match yet, I'd suggest keeping your focus on safe reloads. You know the drill: finger outside the trigger guard, muzzle in safe direction, etc...

From a performace stand point: keep the gun high, get to the mag button to drop the spent one, get your weak hand to the fresh one, watch the new one into the magwell, seat firmly and get back to the shooting.

Speedy shot-to-shot reloads run in the sub 1 second neighborhood. Youtube search for Travis Tomasie - I think his demonstrated reloads are what many apsire to.

[Merlin Orr]

Look up Superman.... You Know... Faster than a speeding bullet and all that......

TT is blinding....

[JeremyV]

lumpygravy,
Safety first of course! I downloaded that Travis Tomasie video about a week ago and have been trying to copy his Technic! keeping the gun up high seems to help a lot!

I have been spending an hour or two a night on mag changes for the last week or so and am getting a consistent 1.3 sec change and if I push really hard I have got in the sub one second time but then my form goes way down and I end up catching the lip of the mag on the bottom of the magwell part of the time.
If I slow down to 1.5 sec I am 100% I have been doing it with my eyes closed a bit and that seems to help a lot!

Any other advice for training for my first comp?

Jeremy

[Mat Price]

first bit of advice is keep your eyes open. Always look your mag into the the gun. Practice only getting the mag from the belt to the opening. tons of reps there get that down to as fast as you can. Separate the drills from belt to gun only and full mag changes. Do everything you can to make the move from the belt to gun as fast and smooth as you can.

Edited by Mat Price, 23 March 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[swatcop]

Let Travis show you what fast is. Here's the Link.

[JeremyV]

Mat price,
I have a question why do I need to look for the magwell? I was thinking the goal was to train the subconscious to do the mag change for you that way you can focus on other tasks like moving to the next target or just focusing on the target at hand?

I was talking with another forum user about this and he told me to try doing mag changes with the lights off.

Just wondering what your think about all this?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Mat price,
why look for the magwell? try doing mag changes with the lights off.

Jeremy, that would be great, if you can do it.

I have enough trouble looking the mag into the magwell.

If the force is strong enough, that would certainly be
beneficial to do everything at such a high level that
you don't even think about it anymore - that would give
you a leg up in competition -

IF you can do it ...

[JeremyV]

High-power jack,
I am new to pistol shooting but have been a professional athlete for over 15 years and in the sport I am in its all about getting your skills to the subconscious level. If you are thinking about what you are doing then you are way to slow.
if you go to my website jeremyvanschoonhoven.com there is a video on the home page watch it and then what I am saying might make more sense.

Jeremy

[Mat Price]

Jeremy I am working today but when I get off tonight I will make a post about Proprioception and proprioceptive neurons and fibers.

Edited by Mat Price, 24 March 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[sroe3]

Jeremy, in spite of your success on a bike I think you might be rushing towards a mistake with your gun. I'm sure you understand how much the subconscious mind controls during competition. Do your reps perfectly in practice. Do them slowly. If you do your reloads high it's right in front of your eyes. Why not use the input your eyes give you to do every reload perfectly? Proper technique is fast and your subconscious will allow you to do it as fast as you are capable of at a match. The game will "slow down" as you gain experience.

Your goals should be improvements on your personal best, whether reload, draw, percent of points earned, classifier percentage, or whatever. Record what you can do and try to do it better.

My IPSC instructor's advice to our class: Goal for the first match, don't DQ. Goal for the second match, don't be last. You'll be performing within a set of rules that aren't ingrained yet so you'll need to concentrate on not breaking any of them.

Edited by sroe3, 24 March 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Flexmoney]

Try the search page. It works pretty good.

[steel1212]

Keep the gun in your face box. Press the mag release button and explode your week hand to the magazine. Explode your weak hand with magazine back to the gun WHILE LOOKING AT YOUR MAGWELL. Have a slight pause so that you insert the magazine and don't miss the mag well. Roll gun back out on target.

Eh but what do I know lol

[JeremyV]

Sroe3,
I dont think I explained how my training works.. A lot of my mag changes I take 3 to 5 secounds to do slow and perfect.
Then I speed up trying to stay smooth. Then I try a few as fast as I can go and see where I start to brake down. I also video tape myself and compair it to the video of travis.
I started doing the mag changes with my eyes closed so that I am not correcting my bad aim but rather learning from the start where the mag goes without looking. The forum member that told me to train with the lights out was Brian Enos.

I not even imagine going into a copetition with the goal of just finishing without getting a DQ I am a very competitave person and want to be as well prepaired as possible.

So now that you know what my training is do you still think I am heading in the wrong direction? Or did you just think I was tryin to be as fast as I could without proper form?

Jeremy

[lumpygravy]

Like any developed skill, there is a progression.

In regards to the reload, it sounds like you're definitely past the beginner stage. Practicing with your eyes closed or in the dark is very beneficial - I do it myself. I'd say if you can get a solid 1.25-.130 dry firing - cold and on demand - you're ready to test that in a match or live fire practice.

There's a lot more to the game beyond the reload. It's an important skill, no doubt, but don't get hung up on just the one skill of a multi-faceted game.

[sroe3]

I hope I didn't insult you. Just beware the perils of racing in your first match. Have fun!

[JeremyV]

lumpygravy,
I agree with what you are saying as far as all the different skills needed.
I am nowhere near ready for my first match.. I am hoping that in 6 months I will be ready but I have a lot to work on before that.
I need to know the rules inside and out I need to have shot from every position that i might shoot in a match and I need to be able to reload on the move and a bunch of other skills I do not currently have.

Right Now I am working on getting a solid base and learning how to call my shots, Drawing and changing mags and transitioning from target to target.

I expect that I need at least another 10,000 mag changes before I will be close to where I want to be for my first competition.

This forum is an awesome place and I am very thankful to be able to learn from you guys!

[JeremyV]

sroe3,
You did not insult me you are trying to help me and make sure i don't make a big mistakes in my shooting.. I am thankful to you for taking the time to comment on this thread!

From you response I knew what you were thinking I was doing and if in fact that was what I was doing then you would have been spot on.
Trying to be really fast with poor form just makes you really fast at poor form and teaches you to do the moves wrong.
I have Worked with Olympic trainers and been to 6 world championships and working with them has taught me what skill training is all about.

As far as the practicing with your eyes closed goes I think that by using your eyes to see the magwell lets you get away with a lot and makes you feel like you are doing it right. I have a good friend that is blind and he does all kinds of things we would struggle with if we had to close our eyes and he makes it seem really easy.

I am not saying that in a match you should try to not look at the magwell. I am just saying that when you are practicing bringing the mag up to insert it if you are off a little bit your eyes will guide you back on course. If you train with your eyes closed then your body will know the exact course because it knows its relationship to itself. This frees up your eyes to do other things like looking where you are going when your running or looking at your next target or any number of things but the main thing is it forces you to get really good and know what your body is doing without visual aids.

I guess I see it kind of like how Brian explained about using the sights to verify that I am in the right spot and not to use the sights to get my gun to the right spot.. Does that make sense?


Again thanks for your Help and advice!

Jeremy

[old506]

Why wait 6 months? Maybe there is a good reason? Don't let being a novice stop you from getting out there!

[GrumpyOne]

lumpygravy,
I agree with what you are saying as far as all the different skills needed.
I am nowhere near ready for my first match.. I am hoping that in 6 months I will be ready but I have a lot to work on before that.
I need to know the rules inside and out I need to have shot from every position that i might shoot in a match and I need to be able to reload on the move and a bunch of other skills I do not currently have.

Right Now I am working on getting a solid base and learning how to call my shots, Drawing and changing mags and transitioning from target to target.

I expect that I need at least another 10,000 mag changes before I will be close to where I want to be for my first competition.

This forum is an awesome place and I am very thankful to be able to learn from you guys!

While practice is good, practicing without doing is not going to get you terribly far. You have to get out and shoot the match...Forget about trying to win, cause you won't, even 6 months from now. Practice from now till the cows come home, but without real world experience (shooting in matches), it won't help you with stage break down, timing, etc. Sure, you will be able to change mags lightening fast, but will you know where to change mags? Will you know the best way to shoot a Texas Star? Or a Polish Plate rack? Do you know how you are going to react when you slide down, or get popped in the head from splatter off of a plate? There is no substitute for real match experience. Go shoot. Practice between matches. The go shoot again.

And, you will NEVER be able to practice from every position that you might shoot from in a match. Stage designers are evil people and will find a way to make you uncomfortable....

And, your first match will more than likely be a level 1 match (club level), and it's not really that much of a competition, more of a social event...

Stop practicing and go shoot a match....You might like it!

Edited by GrumpyOne, 24 March 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Bamboo]

Agreed - go to a match. You will discover what you need to learn, and learn much faster. Much more to a match than can really be described, it needs to be experienced.

Using a music analogy, many guys can tear it up in the bedroom but can't play with a real band on a real stage in front of a real audience because there is a lot more going on then just note-for-note regurgitation. Same thing with shooting a match. You have to be able to overcome, improvise, adapt as the situation and landscapes change. Besides, you will get to know your fellow shooters and might even have a good time!

[JeremyV]

GrumpyOne,
While you have some very good pints I don't totally agree with you though.

I am a little surprised that your advice is to stop training.

Part of training is knowing the rules, going to matches and watching, looking up stages on youtube, talking to experienced competitors about your game plan,
Learning from watching where others made mistakes. Running competitions in your head before you start.

If you know for sure you are going to fail in the competition why not train to the point where you think you have a chance at a clean competition?


If all I practices is mag changes then I am the dumbest person alive.


Jeremy

[GrumpyOne]

GrumpyOne,
While you have some very good pints I don't totally agree with you though.

I am a little surprised that your advice is to stop training.

Part of training is knowing the rules, going to matches and watching, looking up stages on youtube, talking to experienced competitors about your game plan,
Learning from watching where others made mistakes. Running competitions in your head before you start.

If you know for sure you are going to fail in the competition why not train to the point where you think you have a chance at a clean competition?


If all I practices is mag changes then I am the dumbest person alive.


Jeremy

Perhaps you should slow down and read my post again. Where, exactly, did I say stop training? You are mistaking training for practicing... there is a difference.

Take this analogy: Say you have never driven a car before, but you've read everything there is about how to drive it. You've practiced sitting on your couch, turning a plate as the steering wheel, pushing a brick with your right foot for the gas, and another for the brake....Can you drive? Can you win the Indy 500? Can you even get the car out of the driveway without stalling it or backing into a tree?

There is no substitute for a real match. You are going about this the wrong way, my friend. You need to drop ALL expextations on your future performance. ALL EXPECTATIONS. Free your mind from all expectations and just shoot.

Edit to add: Going into your first match, with your expectations so high, is a recipe for disaster. It will drag you down when you don't finish where you think you should, and disappoint you to the point of not possibly shooting another match. I have seen this happen countless times.

Edited by GrumpyOne, 24 March 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Sarge]

There is no substitute for a real match. You are going about this the wrong way, my friend. You need to drop ALL expextations on your future performance. ALL EXPECTATIONS. Free your mind from all expectations and just shoot.

Edit to add: Going into your first match, with your expectations so high, is a recipe for disaster. It will drag you down when you don't finish where you think you should, and disappoint you to the point of not possibly shooting another match. I have seen this happen countless times.

I agree. I have talked to some shooters who were actually pissed that they did not do as well in there first matches as they expected to. This is not an easy game.

Rushing will get you in trouble every time.

[old506]

Launch Jeremy, Launch!