82 replies to this topic

[Schutzenmeister]

If the "shot" is a squib that does not clear the barrel, what result?

By definition ... If a squibbed round does not exit the barrel, it is NOT a shot. (See the glossary.) Hence, and again by definition, no shot has been fired.

[twodownzero]

If the "shot" is a squib that does not clear the barrel, what result?

By definition ... If a squibbed round does not exit the barrel, it is NOT a shot. (See the glossary.) Hence, and again by definition, no shot has been fired.

Yes, thus why I asked a question with that annoyingly straddles the rules.

[Schutzenmeister]

Folks ... 10.4.3 is absolute. If a shot occurs during loading, reloading, or unloading - Your fault, My fault, or Nobody's fault at all - the shooter is DQ'd and his match is over. The days of being able to use the "gun malfunction" alibi went away over 4 years ago.

[aztecdriver]

If the "shot" is a squib that does not clear the barrel, what result?

By definition ... If a squibbed round does not exit the barrel, it is NOT a shot. (See the glossary.) Hence, and again by definition, no shot has been fired.

Yes, thus why I asked a question with that annoyingly straddles the rules.

Let me through a monkey wrench out there - and yes, I realize it's decidedly drifting the thread.

In the above situation, what if as RO I hear the *poof* and issue STOP. What is the result? I've terminated the COF, versus the shooter...

[Schutzenmeister]

If the "shot" is a squib that does not clear the barrel, what result?

By definition ... If a squibbed round does not exit the barrel, it is NOT a shot. (See the glossary.) Hence, and again by definition, no shot has been fired.

Yes, thus why I asked a question with that annoyingly straddles the rules.

Let me through a monkey wrench out there - and yes, I realize it's decidedly drifting the thread.

In the above situation, what if as RO I hear the *poof* and issue STOP. What is the result? I've terminated the COF, versus the shooter...

Aztec

I'm winging it a little here, but I think I understand your question ... i.e. -

- Make Ready
- Shooter loads
- Gun goes "poof" (without the shooter having touched the trigger - i.e., "malfunctions")
- RO Calls STOP!
- Gun proves to have a bullet stuck in the barrel

1 - No shot occurred, by definition. Hence 10.4.3 cannot come into play as it requires a shot to have been fired.
2 - The shooter had a squib with a proven blocked barrel. RO stopped him. Rule 5.7.7 would apply ... Score the CoF as is. (Effectively it becomes a zero score - All targets are missed, Failure to shoot at all targets, and zero time.)

Lesson to be learned ... Come to the match with a safe and properly functioning gun!

[motosapiens]

Let me through a monkey wrench out there - and yes, I realize it's decidedly drifting the thread.

In the above situation, what if as RO I hear the *poof* and issue STOP. What is the result? I've terminated the COF, versus the shooter...

assuming this is all between 'make ready' and 'stand by', that's easy. if the shooter has no squib, and no round left the barrel, then say 'oops, i was wrong, ok, make ready again'.

if the shooter has a squib lodged in the barrel, then there was no shot (didn't leave the barrel, right?), and the shooter hasn't started the COF, so the shooter will have unload, show clear and fix the problem, then come back and shoot.

if the shooter had a squib that exited the barrel, then shooter is dq'd.

that's what I think.

[twodownzero]

Let me through a monkey wrench out there - and yes, I realize it's decidedly drifting the thread.

In the above situation, what if as RO I hear the *poof* and issue STOP. What is the result? I've terminated the COF, versus the shooter...

assuming this is all between 'make ready' and 'stand by', that's easy. if the shooter has no squib, and no round left the barrel, then say 'oops, i was wrong, ok, make ready again'.

if the shooter has a squib lodged in the barrel, then there was no shot (didn't leave the barrel, right?), and the shooter hasn't started the COF, so the shooter will have unload, show clear and fix the problem, then come back and shoot.

if the shooter had a squib that exited the barrel, then shooter is dq'd.

that's what I think.

Sounds exactly right to me.

[motosapiens]

2 - The shooter had a squib with a proven blocked barrel. RO stopped him. Rule 5.7.7 would apply ... Score the CoF as is. (Effectively it becomes a zero score - All targets are missed, Failure to shoot at all targets, and zero time.)

I disagree. 5.7.7 applies if the shooter is stopped during the course of fire, whereas this situation hypothetically ocurred before the start signal. Under 5.7.1, he should get to go fix it w/o penalty.

[Sarge]

If the "shot" is a squib that does not clear the barrel, what result?

By definition ... If a squibbed round does not exit the barrel, it is NOT a shot. (See the glossary.) Hence, and again by definition, no shot has been fired.

Yes, thus why I asked a question with that annoyingly straddles the rules.

Let me through a monkey wrench out there - and yes, I realize it's decidedly drifting the thread.

In the above situation, what if as RO I hear the *poof* and issue STOP. What is the result? I've terminated the COF, versus the shooter...

Aztec

I'm winging it a little here, but I think I understand your question ... i.e. -

- Make Ready
- Shooter loads
- Gun goes "poof" (without the shooter having touched the trigger - i.e., "malfunctions")
- RO Calls STOP!
- Gun proves to have a bullet stuck in the barrel

1 - No shot occurred, by definition. Hence 10.4.3 cannot come into play as it requires a shot to have been fired.
2 - The shooter had a squib with a proven blocked barrel. RO stopped him. Rule 5.7.7 would apply ... Score the CoF as is. (Effectively it becomes a zero score - All targets are missed, Failure to shoot at all targets, and zero time.)

Lesson to be learned ... Come to the match with a safe and properly functioning gun!

Edit because I got wrapped up too much in the conversation.

Edited by Sarge, 19 March 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Skydiver]

2 - The shooter had a squib with a proven blocked barrel. RO stopped him. Rule 5.7.7 would apply ... Score the CoF as is. (Effectively it becomes a zero score - All targets are missed, Failure to shoot at all targets, and zero time.)

I disagree. 5.7.7 applies if the shooter is stopped during the course of fire, whereas this situation hypothetically ocurred before the start signal. Under 5.7.1, he should get to go fix it w/o penalty.

Remember that the course of fire begins at "Make Ready" (See 8.3.1). Just like a dropped gun after "Make Ready", but before "Start Signal", it's a DQ under 10.5.3.

Edited by Skydiver, 19 March 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[remoandiris]

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

I didn't think of this before...what if it was an ammo issue? And how would you know if it was the ammo or the gun? You wouldn't.

[Sarge]

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

I didn't think of this before...what if it was an ammo issue? And how would you know if it was the ammo or the gun? You wouldn't.

AND

It would not matter. if a "shot" occurs for any reason it's a DQ..

[remoandiris]

It would not matter. if a "shot" occurs for any reason it's a DQ..

Correct. But it is another tic against using 5.7.1. since there is no way to know if it was the gun or ammo.

[sperman]

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

I didn't think of this before...what if it was an ammo issue? And how would you know if it was the ammo or the gun? You wouldn't.

If you have ammo that goes off without the firing pin hitting the primer you've go serious issues and you and your ammo are excused from the match.

[Leftridge]

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

I didn't think of this before...what if it was an ammo issue? And how would you know if it was the ammo or the gun? You wouldn't.

If you have ammo that goes off without the firing pin hitting the primer you've go serious issues and you and your ammo are excused from the match.

yikes possessed ammo

[Nik Habicht]

This incident occurred at the RO's make ready command. Trigger finger outside of trigger well. This I think is your key. A discharge that occurs without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction therefore the shooter should be allowed to correct the problem,use a backup gun meeting the same division requirements or withdraw without penalty.

This is exactly what I thought, too. But, I came to accept the wording of 10.4.3...and it says "shot". Doesn't say shot as a result of pulling the trigger, just says shot. "Shot" is defined in the rulebook. If there is a shot while loading, it is a shot. A shot caused by a malfunction of the the gun (or ammo), is still a shot nonetheless and a DQ offense based on the definition of "shot". The malfunction is secondary. It would be unfortunate to a shooter, whether at a local match or Nationals, but it is what it is. The shooter can always arbitrate and argue the malfunction rule.

One thing I failed to read before I started this (no one else pointed it out either), the second sentence in 10.4.3 further clears the issue, IMO;

"This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7."

8.3.1 is the "Make Ready" command rule. So, any shot while the competitor responds to the "Make Ready" command is a DQ.

This situation happened to me about 2 yrs ago at a local match in the midwest. I wasn't a certified RO. Others on the squad were. They said the shooter could fix his gun or get another. The shooter had the gun serviced earlier in the week. I'll remember this and will pull the rulebook if it happens from here on.

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

We don't care. The onus is on the shooter to bring a gun that runs. If the shooter brings an unsafe firearm, and breaks a safety rule as a result, the shooter is disqualified. Whether they intended to fire or not is irrelevant to this discussion.

[motosapiens]

Remember that the course of fire begins at "Make Ready" (See 8.3.1). Just like a dropped gun after "Make Ready", but before "Start Signal", it's a DQ under 10.5.3.

I see your point, and 5.7.7 might apply. I have to admit, I don't really care tho. It's a pretty contrived situation.

[West Texas Granny]

This incident occurred at the RO's make ready command. Trigger finger outside of trigger well. This I think is your key. A discharge that occurs without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction therefore the shooter should be allowed to correct the problem,use a backup gun meeting the same division requirements or withdraw without penalty.

This is exactly what I thought, too. But, I came to accept the wording of 10.4.3...and it says "shot". Doesn't say shot as a result of pulling the trigger, just says shot. "Shot" is defined in the rulebook. If there is a shot while loading, it is a shot. A shot caused by a malfunction of the the gun (or ammo), is still a shot nonetheless and a DQ offense based on the definition of "shot". The malfunction is secondary. It would be unfortunate to a shooter, whether at a local match or Nationals, but it is what it is. The shooter can always arbitrate and argue the malfunction rule.

One thing I failed to read before I started this (no one else pointed it out either), the second sentence in 10.4.3 further clears the issue, IMO;

"This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7."

8.3.1 is the "Make Ready" command rule. So, any shot while the competitor responds to the "Make Ready" command is a DQ.

This situation happened to me about 2 yrs ago at a local match in the midwest. I wasn't a certified RO. Others on the squad were. They said the shooter could fix his gun or get another. The shooter had the gun serviced earlier in the week. I'll remember this and will pull the rulebook if it happens from here on.

Where we disagree is the malfunction caused the the round to fire. The " shot" did not occur as the result of the shooter pulling the trigger but it occurred due to the malfunction of the gun. Therefore the shooter should not be penalized for this incident as they had safely handled the pistol and at the RO's command.

It was a mechanical malfunction completely out of control of the shooter. This was a malfunction and the shooter should not be DQ'ed because of it.

A shot occurs when the trigger is pulled. A shot occurring without the trigger being pulled is a malfunction of the gun. It either is repaired or a backup gun is used meeting the same requirements as the first gun or the shooter is allowed to withdraw without a DQ.

We don't care. The onus is on the shooter to bring a gun that runs. If the shooter brings an unsafe firearm, and breaks a safety rule as a result, the shooter is disqualified. Whether they intended to fire or not is irrelevant to this discussion.

First off you need to back off. I offer an observation and you jump down my throat.

Second. A lot people are using the word " fired". According to the rulebook definition a "shot" requires only the bullet moving through and exiting the barrel. No requirement for the primer to ignite the powder producing gas and pushing the bullet out of the barrel. A bullet could fall out of the barrel and be classified as a shot. If it does'nt leave the barrel no shot has occurred by definition from my little rule book and what is posted online.

Third. Your statement " We don't care" says a lot. It's time that changes.


While I was only offering an observation in the beginning it's time to comment on the rules.

Fourth. Rules that people make assumptions about which is quite evident on the first page of this discussion. Very bad as a rule should be clear cut and clear to anyone reading it. When people start reading into the rules you get problems.

Fifth. Ranking rules in order of which takes precedence over another rule.
This rule says this but this one says that but neither control but this one does. A fine example is 5.7.1. There is no mention of a DQ in it. People point to 10.4 but 10.4 and this is key " a shooter competitor WHO causes" and the only way a shooter can cause a discharge to happen is if the finger was on the trigger and in this one case it was not. If the trigger is not pulled what you have is a malfunction as stated in 5.7.1 that allows for a shooter to repair if possible. No mention of a DQ.

Sixth in 10.4.3.1 there exists an exception? An exception that one can reasonably argue to be extended to what occurred in the OP. Granted the incident mentioned in the OP was not during an unload but it does bring back the stated malfunction alibi others have said was removed yet still exists in the rules. As a result no DQ should be given under the conditions as stated in the OP.

Edited by West Texas Granny, 20 March 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[wgnoyes]

There was an exception once to AD DQ's if you could demonstrate that the gun was broken and by "broken", I mean the RM takes the gun to an onsite gun smith and he takes it apart and finds a physically broken part. Normal wear was not considered a broken part. That exception was taken out some years ago. It is the competitor's responsibility is to maintain his gun in safe working order. If it goes off by itself, obviously its not in safe working order. Nik's "we don't care" is entirely correct. And something else that used to be in the rulebook in the introduction, so it wasn't an actual rule, but it's still true. "It's your gun. You're shooting it. If you can't accept the responsibility for what happens as a result, you need to go find another sport."

Edited by wgnoyes, 20 March 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[aztecdriver]

First off you need to back off. I offer an observation and you jump down my throat.

Actually, you didn't make an observation - you made a statement about how "we" do things. That generally illicits a different response than making an argument about the way it should be based on an observation. Also, one must keep in mind Nik is in NJ - and they are - well, more direct

Second. A lot people are using the word " fired". According to the rulebook definition a "shot" requires only the bullet moving through and exiting the barrel. No requirement for the primer to ignite the powder producing gas and pushing the bullet out of the barrel. A bullet could fall out of the barrel and be classified as a shot. If it does'nt leave the barrel no shot has occurred by definition from my little rule book and what is posted online.

Actually, I'd like to see a bullet that could actually make it through a barrel that wasn't fired from a powder charge. Every primer only squib I've seen ends up with the bullet lodged just inside the rifling. So while a shot may occur with the bullet just "falling" out of the barrel - the vast majority of cases will require such force that a charge "firing" will be needed.

Third. Your statement " We don't care" says a lot. It's time that changes.

Wrong context. We do care about the ruling and understanding. We do not make a distinction as to whether a malfunctioning weapon causes the discharge or the shooter breaks any other rule (finger on the trigger while loading), to the rules - they are one in the same - more on why in response to your points.

While I was only offering an observation in the beginning it's time to comment on the rules.

Please - lets...

Fourth. Rules that people make assumptions about which is quite evident on the first page of this discussion. Very bad as a rule should be clear cut and clear to anyone reading it. When people start reading into the rules you get problems.

You could have the clearest rule in the world and people are still going to try and DRL the crap out of it. It's what some people do - it's why we have the arbitration language and process. The law is the same way, which is why we have lawyers, judges and juries. If we were to write out every possible permutation, the rulebook would be the size of the bible. No one would read it, and no one would participate. I don't think this situation is as bad as it seems - and I'll tell you why in a second.

Fifth. Ranking rules in order of which takes precedence over another rule.
This rule says this but this one says that but neither control but this one does. A fine example is 5.7.1. There is no mention of a DQ in it. People point to 10.4 but 10.4 and this is key " a shooter competitor WHO causes" and the only way a shooter can cause a discharge to happen is if the finger was on the trigger and in this one case it was not. If the trigger is not pulled what you have is a malfunction as stated in 5.7.1 that allows for a shooter to repair if possible. No mention of a DQ.

I beg to differ. There is a clear and needed precedence and order. 5.7.1 deals with competitor equipment and in the case of a malfunction during 8.3.1 or what we refer to as "Make Ready". A malfunctioning handgun may or may not be apparent at that time, but if it is apparent, the competitor can retire to make repairs. The order is established in this rule with this clause...and subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5, Rule 8.3.1.1, and all other safety rules.

This order means that no matter the malfunction - all other safety rules apply, which 10.4 does indeed deal with. Now, your contention that a competitor has to cause a shot by using the standard firing mechanism. I would say that you are forgetting that the competitor's handgun is required to be serviceable and safe. (5.1.6) By loading and racking the slide on an unsafe firearm, thus causing a shot to happen, the competitor has indeed "caused" a shot to happen. Regardless of the function of pressing the trigger on a safe firearm or simply racking the slide on one that is unsafe - the result is the same. The gun malfunctioned, but a shot occured, which violated a safety rule, 10.4.3 comes into play.

Sixth in 10.4.3.1 there exists an exception? An exception that one can reasonably argue to be extended to what occurred in the OP. Granted the incident mentioned in the OP was not during an unload but it does bring back the stated malfunction alibi others have said was removed yet still exists in the rules. As a result no DQ should be given under the conditions as stated in the OP.

It does not exist. Let's look at the exception:

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

Now - don't we also need the definition of detonation? Let's get that:

Detonation . . . . . . . . . . . .Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retracted, when a round is dropped)

Now, once again, if we look at the definition of what happened in the OP, 1. The primer was detonated by a hammer follow or other malfunction that the gun functioned as normal with the exception of the trigger being pulled. ie., the firing pin or striker struck the primer, the gun discharged a shot. 2. The bullet passed through the barrel and a "shot" occurred.

With the definition of "detonation" being recognized - the exception of 10.4.3.1 clearly does not apply, on more than one point. So, just because there is an exception, does not give an alibi.

I clearly hear what you are saying - I just completely disagree with you. This is a DQ. The competitor loaded an unsafe weapon, which by doing so caused a shot to occur, and because of which 10.4.3 is in effect.

Let me ask you - if I enter my vehicle without checking my taillights and get pulled over and ticketed for a non-functioning light - do you think it appropriate for me to say "I'm sorry, judge - I didn't know the light was out?"

Edited by aztecdriver, 20 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]
Let me ask you - if I enter my vehicle without checking my taillights and get pulled over and ticketed for a non-functioning light - do you think it appropriate for me to say "I'm sorry, judge - I didn't know the light was out?"

Why not argue PTSD ...

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Post Traumatic Signal Disorder!

[deacon12224]

Clearly this should have been a DQ. 10.4.3 is directly on point and the only exception to the rule does not apply. It's not that complicated.

To use 5.7.1 to excuse an AD would open up all kinds of doors that we really don't want to open. Everyone that commits an AD would be claiming malfunction. You would then have to have gunsmiths around to determine if the shot was fired by the gun as a malfunction or by the competitor.

- How about if the shot had been fired running to a position or after a reload during the actual COF? Would you apply 5.7.2 and give the shooter time to rectify the problem and continue the COF?
- What if a grip panel was loose and caused the gun to slip out of the shooters hand and fall to the ground? Is that a malfunction or a DQ?
- Would you actually allow a shooter to send a shot over the berm and not DQ them just because they say the gun fired on its own?
- What if the lock on a holster malfunctions and the gun falls to the ground during the COF? Are you not going to DQ that shooter?

Let's allow personal responsibiity to continue to live in USPSA. God knows it's disappearing everywhere else.

[Schutzenmeister]

To use 5.7.1 to excuse an AD would open up all kinds of doors that we really don't want to open. Everyone that commits an AD would be claiming malfunction. You would then have to have gunsmiths around to determine if the shot was fired by the gun as a malfunction or by the competitor.

Which is exactly why 4+ years ago the alibi clause for DQs was removed from the rules ...

Thanks for the examples!

[ima45dv8]

To use 5.7.1 to excuse an AD would open up all kinds of doors that we really don't want to open. Everyone that commits an AD would be claiming malfunction. You would then have to have gunsmiths around to determine if the shot was fired by the gun as a malfunction or by the competitor.

Which is exactly why 4+ years ago the alibi clause for DQs was removed from the rules ...

And I for one, was damn glad to see it go away.

Thanks for the examples!

Yes!

[ChristianHE]

It's a DQ, pure and simple. As others have pointed out, it's a shot fired, regardless of the reason. Basically the idea is that you're on the hook to bring a safe weapon.

FWIW, I earned a DQ for the same problem when my gun developed hammer follow on match day. At the time, I thought it might have been a malfunction, but running it up the chain at NROI cleared that misconception up for me.

BB

I'm just curious, what type of gun was it? I had a .45 that would only hammer follow on a slide release with no magazine, but it would leave it in the half-cocked position.

Anyone ever had "striker-follow"? Or are those types of guns made with a block that doesn't allow it?