53 replies to this topic

[SirLoin]

I think you both are saying the same thing: it's okay to understand the rationale for the rule and and not agree with it.
That, or I misread things...

<< You don't have to agree with it, just understand the reasoning behind it. >>

Actually it is ok to shoot IDPA, not like the rule, not understand the reason behind it, and bitch about it whenever you feel like it. Joining/competing in IDPA does not automatically cancel your 1st Amendment rights nor is there a section in the membership agreement that forbids you from expressing your opinion.

[motosapiens]

to me, it clearly seems like the inventors of idpa were annoyed by the habit of uspsa shooters who carry 9187324 mags on their belt and reload any time they move, even if they only shot 3 rounds, and leave 3/4 full mags lying all over the place. Someone must have thought that behavior was not 'practical', and/or they thought it likely that in 'real life' people would shoot to slidelock, so they wanted to encourage people to shoot all the way to slidelock.

Whether or not one agrees with that thinking, I can understand the rationale and act accordingly. It's not like you would gain any advantage by being able to drop loaded mags, because everyone else would be doing it too.

[Steve Koski]

<< You don't have to agree with it, just understand the reasoning behind it. >>

Actually it is ok to shoot IDPA, not like the rule, not understand the reason behind it, and bitch about it whenever you feel like it. Joining/competing in IDPA does not automatically cancel your 1st Amendment rights nor is there a section in the membership agreement that forbids you from expressing your opinion.

Bob,

Close. There is a rule against unsportmanlike conduct. If you bitch about some rule you don't care for 527 times during a match, that could rise to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Koski

[Merlin Orr]

" I'll tell you why you are going to do what you are going to do today because today you are my bitch."


IDPA.

Don't like it, well move along then.........

[Steve Koski]

LOL!

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Why does IDPA require that a empty mag be stowed if the mag is empty but a round remains in the chamber? To me it makes no sense to stow an empty mag just a waste of time.

There's an important distinction between what's right in any one instance and what makes for a good general-case rule, because (1) we want the rules of a game or sport to be clear and easy to adjudicate, and (2) we want to instill the right skills and habits for use outside the game.

Allowing the shooter to drop an empty magazine as long as he has a round in the chamber is more challenging, but not impossible, to referee. Failing to test everyone's ability to reload from slide-lock might be a bigger issue, since real-life defensive shooting rarely involves planning out mag changes ahead of time.

[jason237m]

It would be interesting to review real life defensive gunfight data and see how often mag changes were done at slide lock vs. a speed reload.

If instinctivly shooting to slide lock is the norm, would it make sense to get into the habit of practicing slide like reloads and getting used to the feel of the slide locking back?

I don't have any data, I'm just wondering.

[reichebrown]

Its a rule in a game. If you dont like the rules dont play the game.

Just this weekend I was shooting and doing a reload with retention on my revolver. While setting up for the stage a friend suggested that I put my partial moon clip in my empty gun holster while reaching for a new clip. It all worked out ok until I had to run from that position and the clip fell out... Lesson learned, I will be using my pockets from now on.

[shootaglock89]

I have no problem with the rule. Like Koski said earlier, we need to try and keep some realism in the sport. Yes, it is a game, but with roots in Defensive shooting. Am I going to use those rules to my advantage? You Bet! I'm a gamer.

[Steve Koski]

GAMER!!!

[astephenson]

I think the rule makes perfect sense, for the reason Koski stated.

I always chuckle to myself when I see a budding gamer that thinks he's found the reloading loophole and drops an empty mag with one in the chamber.

[shootaglock89]

GAMER!!!

You bet I am. It is a game after all.

I think the rule makes perfect sense, for the reason Koski stated.

I always chuckle to myself when I see a budding gamer that thinks he's found the reloading loophole and drops an empty mag with one in the chamber.

It is quite...entertaining when this happens. They give the SO a mean look when they get dinged.

Edited by shootaglock89, 19 March 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Seeker]

Folks,

IDPA is a sport that has it's own unique rules. Just like Steel, SASS, IPSC, Sporting clays, Skeet, Trap and USPSA have their own rules and regulations.

I 've often heard opinions as why we shoot IDPA the way we do and the reason for the methods, however all I have to go by is the rule book.

From the rule book.

IDPA Principles:

I. Promote safe and proficient use of guns and
equipment suitable for self-defense.

Good so far.

II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to
test the skill and ability of each individual, not
equipment or gamesmanship.

This is the crux of the matter. The sport has defined rigid rules that determine the exact way that a COF is engaged to ensure that everyone uses the same methods.
So if a competitor finds a more efficient way to neutralize the threats that was not considered by the designer, he/she may incur a penalty.

This IS the rule of IDPA as clearly specified by line II. Eeveryone will shoot the stage, reload their respective firearm and use cover in exactly the same way as everyone else in their division. Period.

III. Provide separate divisions for equipment and
classifications for shooters, such that guns with
similar characteristics are grouped together and
people with similar skills compete against each other.

Ok

IV. Provide shooters with practical and realistic
courses of fire that simulate potentially lifethreatening
encounters, or that tests skills required to
survive life-threatening encounters.

Ok, I may find that the game has drifted a bit away from # IV. I mean come on,. Does anyone really expect to encounter 6 or 7 threats on a normal milk run? Now the post apocalyptic stage designs sure. However most of us are not Swat team member, will probably never encounter Somalian Pirates, or find ourselves in the middle of zombies. But.... we know that match attendance would suffer if there were 7 stage of 2 or 3 round course of fires .


So. These are the rules. We don't need to understand the rules, just abide by them or we will receive penalties that will adversely affect our score.


I find IDPA to be enjoyable to shoot. I do not find the rules to be a hindrance. Now there are weekends that I shoot USPSA on Saturday and IDPA on Sunday. On those weekends I usually hear the word cover spoken during the first stage while I'm settling in to the proper minds set.

Bottom line we can ponder the the impetus of these rules however I think IDPA principles II sums it up nicely

[Boss1622]

This is the only rule that I can find absolutely no merit in. If a skilled shooter knows when his last round is in the chamber, why would he not recharge his weapon and stay in the fight? They say it is round counting and that is “Gaming” I say it is “Situational Awareness” and should be applauded not penalized. How often to you see a revolver shooter engage a target with a “Click” because he lost count? The rule change would be simple, drop a empty magazine your ok drop a magazine with a round in it you get 3 bonus points added to your score.

[mike l m]

Hey every one,

Some are losing sight of the big picture, IDPA is a game with rules.
Some do not like or agree with some rules, so be it. Follow the rules and "PLAY THE GAME" or Bitch all you want and play the unsportsman conduct.
Do not give the SO/RO a hard time because you(the Shooter) do not play bye the rules. The SO/RO are freely giving their time so no one gets hurt, do things safely, and have a good time.

All I can say, is play by the rules and have a good time or be A PAIN IN THE ASS and look like a jerk.

Mike

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

This is the only rule that I can find absolutely no merit in. If a skilled shooter knows when his last round is in the chamber, why would he not recharge his weapon and stay in the fight? They say it is round counting and that is “Gaming” I say it is “Situational Awareness” and should be applauded not penalized. How often to you see a revolver shooter engage a target with a “Click” because he lost count? The rule change would be simple, drop a empty magazine your ok drop a magazine with a round in it you get 3 bonus points added to your score.

It is much, much easier to maintain "situational awareness" during a pre-planned course of fire. If we want shooters to train to react to slide-lock, we should probably force them to react to slide-lock.

Now, blind stages would obviate the need for this dropped-mag rule, but they're hard to administer.

[Bob Hostetter]

<< If you bitch about some rule you don't care for 527 times during a match, that could rise to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. >>


Does that mean if someone complains about people complaining about the rules 527 times a day is also unsportsmanlike conduct?

I too get tried of hearing about how the rules suck even if I agree with the basic statement. If you are going to compete in IDPA you should just follow the rules and shoot the match. If the topic comes up feel free to express yourself but a 20 tirade is not necessary. But I also dislike listening to the koolaid drinker's repeating expressing their absolute belief that Wilson and friends are actually minor gods and should never be questioned. Both are equally unentertaining with the complainers being unendingly adament and the koolaid drinker's expressing their arrogance and intolerance.

Both groups need to grow up ... Please

[SirLoin]

I don't think that people are losing sight of the big picture or are even "bit*hing".

First of all, as Bob and other posters have said, there's nothing wrong with discussing the IDPA rules. You CAN follow with the rules AND discuss them at the same time.

Second, we're in a FORUM. The main purpose of a forum is to engage in discussions, and we're specifically in the "IDPA Shooting" forum. the posters who've expressed their views on this particular rule aren't being an as* and aren't acting like jerks -- they're engaging in a healthy discussion. Also, these discussions are taking place outside a match and certainly would not even come close to triggering an "unsportsmanlike" conduct issue.

Third, in the same way that you don't have to shoot IDPA if you don't like the rules, you also don't have to enter / participate in the forum if you don't like the discussions.

Hey every one,

Some are losing sight of the big picture, IDPA is a game with rules.
Some do not like or agree with some rules, so be it. Follow the rules and "PLAY THE GAME" or Bitch all you want and play the unsportsman conduct.
Do not give the SO/RO a hard time because you(the Shooter) do not play bye the rules. The SO/RO are freely giving their time so no one gets hurt, do things safely, and have a good time.

All I can say, is play by the rules and have a good time or be A PAIN IN THE ASS and look like a jerk.

Mike

[Punkin Chunker]

It is much, much easier to maintain "situational awareness" during a pre-planned course of fire. If we want shooters to train to react to slide-lock, we should probably force them to react to slide-lock.

Now, blind stages would obviate the need for this dropped-mag rule, but they're hard to administer.

If we REALLY wanted to train shooters to 'react' to slide lock, there'd be some effective way to deal with round-dumping.

I love blind stages, wish there could be more of them. But as soon as the first shooter is on his run, target spacing and number aren't that hard to puzzle out.

[SirLoin]

+1

I would add that IDPA HQ is taking a second look at the Rulebook so much so that it formed the Tiger Teams -- from Joyce Wilson's Oct 19, 2011 email to all IDPA members: "We will create Tiger Teams to look at various aspects of the sport, including but not limited to: Classifications, Divisions, Rulebook".

<< If you bitch about some rule you don't care for 527 times during a match, that could rise to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. >>


Does that mean if someone complains about people complaining about the rules 527 times a day is also unsportsmanlike conduct?

I too get tried of hearing about how the rules suck even if I agree with the basic statement. If you are going to compete in IDPA you should just follow the rules and shoot the match. If the topic comes up feel free to express yourself but a 20 tirade is not necessary. But I also dislike listening to the koolaid drinker's repeating expressing their absolute belief that Wilson and friends are actually minor gods and should never be questioned. Both are equally unentertaining with the complainers being unendingly adament and the koolaid drinker's expressing their arrogance and intolerance.

Both groups need to grow up ... Please

[M1911]

So, what is either tactical or practical about hanging onto an empty mag?? It sure seems that the IDPA rules were written by a bunch of old instructors with nothing better to do. The Tiger Team has a lot of work to do, and this is only one example.

The assumption is that in a real world scenario you would not be able to count your rounds. So you would shoot to slide lock. Therefore, their theory is that a speed reload is not "tactical." I think their viewpoint has some merit.

[motosapiens]

It is much, much easier to maintain "situational awareness" during a pre-planned course of fire. If we want shooters to train to react to slide-lock, we should probably force them to react to slide-lock.

Now, blind stages would obviate the need for this dropped-mag rule, but they're hard to administer.

If we REALLY wanted to train shooters to 'react' to slide lock, there'd be some effective way to deal with round-dumping.

imho, that would require mind-reading, a skill that is in short supply among SO's. Simply making the rule that ALL magazines must be retained, whether empty or full would remove the incentive for round dumping, and the whole idea could be ignored. if people wanted to reload early, fine. if not, fine. level playing field for everyone. It has the added bonus of being different from USPSA, which is clearly an important goal for the IDPA inventors.

Since we only have 3 mags, it makes practical tactical real-world sense to me to retain them so we can reload them and still be able to shoot at the hordes of carboard guys on sticks.

[Early IPSC'er]

3 Questions:

1. Has there EVER been a documented case where an individual was killed because they ran out of ammunition after having dropped a partially loaded magazine/moon clip/ammo?

No--at least none that anyone has brought to light.

2. Has there EVER been a documented case where an individual was killed while in the act of emptying their handgun by retaining empty brass/magazines/moon clips?

Yes--at least one very famous case. Police officer in California was found shot to death with his revolver cylinder open and his hand grasping the empties which he had retained in his off hand instead of dumping them and grabbing his speed loader.

3. Is shooting to slide-lock EVER a tactically sound maneuver?

No--the exceptions would be so rare as to defy that they would logically ever happen unless you're fighting the Battle of the Bulge or the Chosin Reservoir.

....and yet under the pretext of "realism" we mandate the former and reward the later. We can attempt to find tactical reasoning for this but it is simply creative wordsmithing---the real reason for this nonsense, is that it differentiates IDPA from IPSC. The same thing goes for the emphasis on the use of cover and "slicing the pie." They're emphasized to simply say, "see, we're not IPSC."

Cover: In the modern world, there is no such thing as cover---well, not enough to count on. In my house there is NOTHING that will stop a 9mm hardball round. Now I'm not against encouraging people to search for and use cover and concealment----however----we have morphed a generation of young shooters whose first reaction is NOT speed and aggression, but cover. Again, I'm not suggesting that people ignore cover---but don't make cowering your initial response to a threat, which, like shooting to slidelock, we're rewarding beyond all rational limits.

Slicing the Pie: The "D" in IDPA is for "Defensive" IIRC. When you start to "slice the pie" you are the predator, not the prey. It's a fine, noble and worthy tactic, but not fundamentally defensive, it's offensive. A skill that you may need???? Perhaps, but born, refined and suitable primarily for fun-house clearly exercises at shooting schools where the interior walls are cinderblock. In post and beam construction where walls are drywall on 2x4's, slicing the pie is a flawed technique unless you're standing a LONG way back from the door jam. If someone ever "comes after" me with a handgun, I deeply hope that they "slice the pie" --- the only thing that would make it better would be if it's dark and they're using a flashlight.

Having been around since the beginning of IPSC in the mid-70's and knowing all but one of the IDPA originators, I can tell you that alot of IDPA is based upon "reaction" rather than on "reality." That's ok---IPSC has rendered itself to a position of tactical irrelevance, but please don't try to rationalize "tactical" reasons for some of IDPA's more unsound rules. It's an insult to a person that thinks.

JMO, YMMV.
EI

[speedrrracer]

I get the rule, and thanks to Koski, I get the reason behind it.

I further agree it should be amended to promote round-counting and allow the dumping of empty mags -- perhaps with appropriate penalties for those who get it wrong!

I'm willing to stipulate that if I'm ever in a real gunfight my round-counting skills might well go out the window, if any dissenters are willing to stipulate that if we don't practice those skills we can absolutely guarantee they'll never be of use.

Since the sport / game has it's roots in improving my defensive pistol skills, it seems that round-counting would be a nice skill to have in a gunfight, I'd appreciate it if IDPA would help me improve it...

[motosapiens]

I'm willing to stipulate that if I'm ever in a real gunfight my round-counting skills might well go out the window,

I assume most of us in free states are carrying more than 10+1 in our 9mm mags, so perhaps the round-counting won't really be helpful in the real world anyway.

Edited by motosapiens, 20 March 2012 - 11:30 AM.