Anyway, is my list missing anything specific to the LNL that I need to get a basic setup going? My decision basically came down to the XL650 or the LnL. The LnL appears perfectly usable without getting a case feeder right away. The XL650 seemed to really need that to be usable. Also, from what I have seen, the powder system on the LnL seems slight more usable than Dillon's. I had a SQB with the charge bar system + Mr. Dial and it was okay but not stellar.
Thanks.
Oh, and no trashing products. Dillon and Hornady each make fine products each with pros and cons. The ultimate pro vs. con is my wallet, however.
I think your list is basically complete - the LnL will come with one small and one large pickup tube anyway BTW. I've never tried using the Dillon tubes on the LnL because I had previously bought a pile of the Hornady tubes and I use those on both my Hornady and my Dillon. I'm guessing they would work fine. As far as the parts thing, it is a problem sometimes - I've had issues where warranty parts replacement on the LnL has taken weeks because even Hornady doesn't have them.
Given your statement above re the LnL vs the XL650 I wanted to weigh in as someone who has loaded on a LnL AP for the last several years (later adding the case feeder and bullet feeder) and recently purchased an XL650. Why did I buy a second press? I had a single stage for one-off load development etc so I didn't have to disturb the progressive, and I wanted another progressive so I could have a way to do higher-volume stuff on one progressive without disturbing the other one. I could've bought another LnL AP but I decided this was an opportunity to see how the other half lived.
I think the LnL is a good machine and certain aspects of it are really nice relative to the XL650. The bushing system is extremely versatile and makes it easy to slap in part of a die set if you want to do split progressive work on rifle calibers etc. You can do that on the 650 but it means either pulling and replacing dies (and losing settings in the process) or having dedicated dies and toolplates for such operations. The LnL is more flexible in this regard.
The other area where I prefer the LnL overall is the primer system - changing from small to large is easily accomplished and more importantly the system will not feed another primer if the one in the slide doesn't get used. The 650 uses a wheel that always advances and if something gets off you wind up with primers in a little slide where they need to be collected and put back in the primer tube.
I have only two frustrations with the LnL primer system: First, the primer is inserted by a plunger which pushes the primer up because it hits a spot on the aluminum frame that forces it upward. Over time this will wear a divot in the aluminum and primers will no longer get seated completely. This can be worked around by securing a metal washer over the divot but it just seems like a chintzy system to me. Second, the plunger has really tight tolerances and is vulnerable to a flake of powder or debris getting under it when it's extended up to seat a primer. The debris keeps it from returning to its full down position and it is then in the way of the primer slide moving backward on the next downstroke of the handle, jamming up the whole works on the next handle downstroke. Sometimes this can be fixed by shooting compressed air into the "gully" under the plunger to blow out the debris, but often one has to raise the press ram slightly, remove the primer plunger using a box wrench and then disassemble it to clean it out.
My biggest frustration with the LnL (and the reason I'm writing all this) is that I feel its case feeder system is subpar compared to the 650 and for that reason I think the 650 is a better foundation if you think you will ever get a case feeder. Without going into too much detail the 650 uses specific parts for each caliber that do not require adjustment (although a camming pin on the press does need to be adjusted when changing calibers). Once the parts for a caliber are installed, the case is positively captured by either its rim or extractor groove and guided directly into the shellplate. Short of landing in the casefeed tube upside-down, if it is possible for the case to get out of position between the drop tube and the shellplate I've never seen it and I'm not sure how it could happen.
The LnL by comparison uses relatively few parts for all pistol/rifle calibers it supports. Like the 650 there are small/large plates for both pistol and rifle, but the LnL also uses small/large plastic tubes to hold the stack of cases, small/large aluminum tubes that sit above the feeder arm, different drop tubes that guide the next piece of brass onto the feeder track and six different V-shaped blocks that push the brass along the track and into the shellplate. Because there are relatively few parts for all pistol and rifle calibers, more adjustment is necessary. For example, the aluminum tubes are threaded and must be adjusted up and down relative to the height of the case in order to feed one and only one case. The process is trial and error to a certain extent although you get better at it over time. Sometimes however you simply can't make it work - I drove myself crazy trying to get .40 cases to feed right and in the end Hornady fixed it by sending me a custom tube that was the upper half of a large tube and the bottom half of a small tube. I'm convinced that the parts in the box will not work for that particular caliber.
Then the proper V-block must be chosen. While the manual has some general recommendations as to what V-block to use for what caliber, I've found that often a different V-block works better than the one they recommend, which makes is another trial and error situation. Sometimes adjusting the timing of the case slide by moving the guide wire up and down is required, and there are times when the best one can do is get the case mostly pushed into the shellplate, because further adjustment causes the case to hit the edge of the shellplate before it's indexed into position. Often this works because the retainer spring will push the case into place as the plate indexes, but sometimes the case pops out instead and gets smashed between the ram and the top of the press.
Finally the track on which the V-block pushes the case is just a flat plane of metal. This works OK most of the time but it means that depending on the case diameter relative to the tube diameter the brass can drop within a fairly large area on that plane. The V-block can usually capture it and guide it back to center, but sometimes the brass falls far enough that the V-block pushes it off the track entirely. Other times the brass will just bounce off the track and hit the ground before the V-block touches it.
I'm going into all of this detail just to describe the fundamental design differences here. Hornady went with a much less controlled system that uses fewer parts but requires a lot more adjustment. That makes caliber changes cheaper (on the 650 the caliber-specific parts are an extra cost and are required) but overall in my experience the Hornady casefeed system will never run with the reliability of the 650 system no matter how carefully you adjust it.
I still really like the LnL overall and I will certainly be keeping it. If you never plan on getting a case feeder I think a LnL AP is a great press and the versatility of the bushing system would probably make me recommend it over the 650 in that instance. If you do plan on getting a case feeder one day however I would strongly encourage you to consider the 650.
I know that a lot of red vs. blue discussions turn into flamewars and I hope nobody thinks I've done any trashing of either system. As I said I own both, I use both and I think each has their good points and bad points. I welcome questions or feedback on all this.
Andy
