35 replies to this topic

[remoandiris]

At several recent local matches the table starts and moving starts far outpaced starts standing inside the shooting area where you could immediately engagte a target. IMO, that effectively negates a fast draw. Am I wrong?

Or is this just a way to mix things up and force people to practice different starting scenarios?

[Skydiver]

I think it just adds variety. It could also be a side effect of only having one or two stage designers being active locally.

If you want to see more of a particular flavor of stage, go help design and build stages of that flavor.

[D.Hayden]

People just mixing it up. Although in a field course, I don't think 1/2 second off your draw matters that much to most people anyways. When more people wil llose that much time on a reload, or much more in getting into a port.

I think Steel Challenge is the real tets of draw times.

[TMC]

I think Steel Challenge is the real tets of draw times.

Steel Challenge is where its HUGE, 39 draws and 31 count. A 1/4 second on each is 7.75 seconds and almost 10% for the fastest guys.

For USPSA they still count on classifiers. On a 6 second stage 3/10th off your draw is 5%.

On a long filed course not so much.

[remoandiris]

If you want to see more of a particular flavor of stage, go help design and build stages of that flavor.

It's not a matter of flavor, it's a matter of a fast draw being virtually useless. I'm involved with 5 stages a match. That is enough for me.

Edited by remoandiris, 10 January 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Corey]

Yes and No. The varied starts adds variety and its fun to use varying starting positions.

As for your question on draw being less important. On a 10 stage match, you draw ten times, so saving .1s on your draw time will net you 1.0 seconds overall. You may reload 2 or 3 times per stage depending on divsion. saving .1s per reload will net you 2.0-3.0 seconds. Add in target transitions and there is a ton of time to be gained (or lost if not practiced). Draw times are good, but not the end-all-be-all of things in this sport.

[XRe]

IMO, that effectively negates a fast draw. Am I wrong?

Yeah, in reality, you are... because it's really not that simple...

For starters, a draw from the holster is still by far the most common start position across the board, regardless of what you're seeing locally right now. As has already been pointed out, those tenths of seconds add up. Are you willing to hand, say, 20-30 match points to your competition before the match begins? Depending on your skill level, and the size of the match, that's what having a draw .2-.3 seconds slower than them (on average) will net you. If you've got an average of a 2.00 second draw, you're losing 10 points per stage to the top shooters on draw alone (that may not be important to you, but it illustrates the point...)

But, there's more benefit than just that. Moving starts - people think they can "soak up the time" on the movement... However, the faster the gun is out of the holster, the faster you're also able to focus solely on moving as fast as you can. If you're struggling to get the gun out several steps into the movement, you've just lost time. If the gun's out before you finish the first step, you're well ahead of the game.

Also, as has also been pointed out, there are other areas of the game that will yield big results for most shooters - position entry and reload speed were mentioned, and I don't disagree. What hasn't been mentioned is index speed - time to move from target to target. There's generally a lot more time to gain there for most folks...

That's why I recommend working draw speed - but don't get obsessive about it. If you can consistently draw the gun to a 10y target in 1.0 flat, on demand, you have a fast enough draw to win major level matches. Sure, it's nice to be able to do that in, say, .75 seconds (the additional skill and confidence you gain in your gun handling alone is worth that), but it's not worth getting there to the detriment of working the other areas of your game. Plus, it's ridiculously easy to work your draw in dry fire, and that translates directly to draw speed in a stage.

[flack jacket]

IMO, that effectively negates a fast draw. Am I wrong?

Yeah, in reality, you are... because it's really not that simple...

For starters, a draw from the holster is still by far the most common start position across the board, regardless of what you're seeing locally right now. As has already been pointed out, those tenths of seconds add up. Are you willing to hand, say, 20-30 match points to your competition before the match begins? Depending on your skill level, and the size of the match, that's what having a draw .2-.3 seconds slower than them (on average) will net you. If you've got an average of a 2.00 second draw, you're losing 10 points per stage to the top shooters on draw alone (that may not be important to you, but it illustrates the point...)

But, there's more benefit than just that. Moving starts - people think they can "soak up the time" on the movement... However, the faster the gun is out of the holster, the faster you're also able to focus solely on moving as fast as you can. If you're struggling to get the gun out several steps into the movement, you've just lost time. If the gun's out before you finish the first step, you're well ahead of the game.

Also, as has also been pointed out, there are other areas of the game that will yield big results for most shooters - position entry and reload speed were mentioned, and I don't disagree. What hasn't been mentioned is index speed - time to move from target to target. There's generally a lot more time to gain there for most folks...

That's why I recommend working draw speed - but don't get obsessive about it. If you can consistently draw the gun to a 10y target in 1.0 flat, on demand, you have a fast enough draw to win major level matches. Sure, it's nice to be able to do that in, say, .75 seconds (the additional skill and confidence you gain in your gun handling alone is worth that), but it's not worth getting there to the detriment of working the other areas of your game. Plus, it's ridiculously easy to work your draw in dry fire, and that translates directly to draw speed in a stage.

Well put Dave.

I remember hearing from TGO on an old Lenny Magill video. Get that gun out!

[AlamoShooter]

Once again my advice it to read XRe post at least twice , The only thing I can add is "The Draw sets your thought pace for the stage." - The brain can be distracted by a draw that takes just 0.20 to 0.10 off your normal good draw speed- IF your brain distracts you at the very start of the stage, telling you that the draw was off. Even a good shooter can be distracted from setting his best stage.

I used to see it all the time in Steel Challenge = and SC stages will magnify any mental distraction. The shooter thinks that they fumble the draw the #1 shot is off when the shooter trys to shave some time off a good sight picture to make up for the slow draw. #2 shot has a jerky transition. #3 is no better. A good shooter recovers and saves a bad run , the normal thing happened and the run is lost with two or three extra shots on the clock.

ON a uspsa stage the shooter gives up C & D hits on the first four targets trying to "Get Back" the lost time on the sub par draw.

Or at a big match The A to master shooter sees another shooter rip a fast draw on a stage , Thats all the shooter sees of the other guys run. He feels like he has to match the other guys draw speed to have a run as good as the other guys.

I beat better shooters all the time because I train harder for consistency than they do.
The draw is the cheepest skill to train at, But yes I do think its less important than it used to be

[pjb45]

I rarely see a stand, hands at side, draw, shoot start anymore. Most have your hands on the X or draw and move into a shooting area, port etc.

There is a good DVD drill which works on the draw and step (move). I found it to be very helpful.

[BillD]

I practiced my draw diligently a couple years ago. Got it down around 1.0.

All the draw practice ended up with me having tendonitis in my elbow and not being able to dryfire for a year.

[Skydiver]

If you want to see more of a particular flavor of stage, go help design and build stages of that flavor.

It's not a matter of flavor, it's a matter of a fast draw being virtually useless. I'm involved with 5 stages a match. That is enough for me.

I was just trying to say that if you feel it's becoming irrelevant, design and setup more stages that stress that skill. For example, one of our local shooters feels that prone and kneeling shooting is becoming irrelevant skills. When he comes out to setup a stage, we'll usually see those skills tested.

[Flexmoney]

I'm leaning to the side that a fast draw isn't all that relevant in the typical USPSA match (that I see). I just don't see very many pure draw stages being run.

When I put on a Major, start positions are one of the things that I look at as a "whole" for the match. After the stages are designed and mostly finalized, I will give them all a look with regards to the start position/procedure.

We still need/desire to test a good pure draw from time to time.

[MarkCO]

The draw is important in most classifiers!

[Derek Wallace]

I have to agree with Alamo regarding the mental effect of the draw. Confidence that you will begin the stage with a smooth/quick draw is nice. Recently I have really picked up my dry fire, beginning most drills from a holster. Already, I am starting to feel much more comfortable and relaxed while I anticipate the buzzer.

I'm hoping this transitions when I get back to matches again.

[shred]

At the last world shoot, somewhat less than half the stages were not from the holster. But you know what? The other half were. You don't need to stand there and do one-target, standing-in-box-hands-at-sides draws all day long, but you do need to work on getting to the shooting as fast as you can. I think some Enos guy said that way back when

Work surrender draws, work hands-on-x draws, work moving-&-drawing (nb: Eric Grauffel is very good at these, and most shooters are still stuck in some flavor of move-then-draw or draw-then-move).

Work on getting-to-the-shooting.

[pjb45]

Seeklander's new DVDs has a bunch of drills that address these issues. Awesome stuff.

[rgkeller]

Practicing the draw while stepping into a shooting area would seem to be the best time saver in matches I see.

[warpspeed]

The 2011 USPSA Open/L-10/Revo Nats show 17 of the 20 stages have a holstered gun start. Hands may not be at sides but the gun is still in the holster to start the stage and needs to be drawn.

I'd say No the question.

[The Antichrome]

Practicing the draw while stepping into a shooting area would seem to be the best time saver in matches I see.

XRe said it in his post, but I'll repeat his point. By the time you are "stepping into a shooting area", you should already have the gun drawn and up and on target.

[rgkeller]

Practicing the draw while stepping into a shooting area would seem to be the best time saver in matches I see.

XRe said it in his post, but I'll repeat his point. By the time you are "stepping into a shooting area", you should already have the gun drawn and up and on target.

You must have a really fast draw and presentation if you can get the pistol on target before you move one foot into a shooting area. Maybe if I practice I'll be able to do that as well.

Hence, my post.

[mpolans]

No, but if you shoot open or limited, the reload is all but irrelevant.

Edited by mpolans, 11 January 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[The Antichrome]

Practicing the draw while stepping into a shooting area would seem to be the best time saver in matches I see.

XRe said it in his post, but I'll repeat his point. By the time you are "stepping into a shooting area", you should already have the gun drawn and up and on target.

You must have a really fast draw and presentation if you can get the pistol on target before you move one foot into a shooting area. Maybe if I practice I'll be able to do that as well.

Hence, my post.

We may be talking about 2 different things.

[Nik Habicht]

No, but if you shoot open or limited, the reload is all but irrelevant.

Open, pretty much. Limited -- it can be pretty relevant, especially if the stage is tight at the end. I shoot a few stages here and there, that test the ability to make a quick reload, even if it's on the move...

[XRe]

No, but if you shoot open or limited, the reload is all but irrelevant.

Also not true for essentially the same reasons I stated for the draw. Time spent is time spent. Shooting Limited, you're still loading once on most stages. Open, the same is true, but fewer stages. Over the competition season last year, I loaded the gun under the clock at least once (there were some unloaded starts in there that also count as a load) on probably half the stages I shot, possibly more. Unlike the draw, the differences here are usually measured in terms of halves or more of seconds rather than tenths. If your competition reloads the gun in 1.25 seconds, and it takes you 1.75 (believe me, that's a typical match reload for most B class shooters), you're handing them an average of 4-5 points per stage in a match. If you don't practice reloads, you will also be more prone to blowing them under match pressure, which turns a 1.5 second skill into a 3 or 4 second execution - handing off a good 20 points right away (yes, the blown reload can be equivalent to shooting a couple of no-shoots in terms of match points).