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draw and split times - USPSA prodution


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#1 Thomas Amoroso

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 08:11 PM

Hi folks. I started shooting at USPSA events earlier this summer and have been having a great time, trying to learn something new and improve at each match. Recently I have started working with a training partner timing ourselves and I am consistently at about a 1.9s draw to first shot, and consistenly around a .21/.22 split between shots. I tried a number of different scnearios - and a couple of times just going balls-out as fast as I can - but my splits dont seem to change, just my accuracy... I hope to get out a few more times this year for some additional practice, and then dry-fire and draw practice indoors this winter. I'm open to any advice or comments, but one question I have is at this stage in my progress, is focussing on speed the right thing given the times I have today (although I can see from other posts that a 1.9 definately has room for improvement). Regarding accuracy, these timing tests have been at around 12 to 15 yards on my right while walking a straight line down the target line (something I need a lot of work on)...

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Tom
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#2 bbbean

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 08:40 PM

Are you getting A hits with those .2 splits?
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#3 Thomas Amoroso

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 08:46 PM

Are you getting A hits with those .2 splits?



A's on first hit, C's on second - I realize I'm taking my eyes off my front sight with the second shot and looking at the target instead - working on fixing that...

#4 DonovanM

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 09:51 PM

Disciplined focus on the front sight, calling your shots, and racking up points is far more important to the game than draw times or splits. I would work on those first, speed will come as a natural byproduct of mastery.

How fast you can shoot doesn't matter. How fast you can shoot A's matters.

Don't forget reloads, too. They are just as important, if not more, than draws - especially in Production.

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#5 beltjones

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:12 AM

Standing draw times are pretty much only important for classifiers. For virtually any other stage you are drawing while moving, picking the gun up off a table, drawing and leaning over a fault line, etc. It's an important skill to practice, but don't make speed your endgame. Instead work on eliminating any wasted movement in your draw, and work on having the trigger prepped and the front sight on target at or before the time the gun is fully extended. If you can do those things your draw will work for a host of different situations, and as a byproduct it will be pretty fast, too.

As far as split times go, like other have said it only matters if you're hitting As. If my split is .25 and I hit an A my hit factor for that shot is 20. To equal that hit factor with a (minor PF) C you would have to have a split of .15, which is not only really difficult, but I can pretty much guarantee you won't be able to call the shot at that speed. Instead work on transitions between targets. If you're hitting an A on your first shot on a target and it takes you .50 seconds, your hit factor will go from 10 to 14.3 if you can get that transition time down to .35 seconds.
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#6 Thomas Amoroso

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:32 AM

Thanks guys - appreciate the responses and advice... A lot of good things to practice this winter :)

Tom

#7 Flexmoney

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

Steel Challenge match at C-ville on Saturday. Lots of draws in that match.
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#8 lugnut

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:07 AM


Are you getting A hits with those .2 splits?



A's on first hit, C's on second - I realize I'm taking my eyes off my front sight with the second shot and looking at the target instead - working on fixing that...


Do you realize that on an average COF with a 5.0 HF... that split is really now a .6s? 2pts=/.4s


Try to think of things not just in time... as everything comes down to HF for stage points. The math is easy.. the discipline isn't always that easy.
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#9 bbbean

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:25 AM

Disciplined focus on the front sight, calling your shots, and racking up points is far more important to the game than draw times or splits. I would work on those first, speed will come as a natural byproduct of mastery.


+1!

If you'll watch top level shooters, you'll find that many of them don't have blindingly fast splits or draw times, but they are incredibly efficient as they move through the stage and accurate enough to get 95%+ of the points available. You'd be better off slowing your splits til you get As, and focus your attention on calling shots, getting into position, stage analysis, reloads, etc. You didn't mention which division you're shooting, but if you're in production, single stack, or revolver a fast reload is FAR more important than a fast draw or a fast split, as is a good stage plan.

If you can, get someone to film you running a few stages. That'll show you where you have the most potential for improvement.

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#10 steel1212

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:17 AM

Try to get your splits the same as your transitions BUT use your front sight as your *thumb rest [generic]*. If you can't see your front sight in the A zone don't take the shot. I was doing the triple nickel drill the other day and realized my split and transitions where all .18-.20 through 10 shots. I was pretty happy with that!
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#11 Racer377

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:42 AM

... use your front sight as your *thumb rest [generic]*. ...


huh?

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#12 steel1212

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:46 AM


... use your front sight as your *thumb rest [generic]*. ...


huh?


I've got no idea what that is. I typed gas pedel and it came up as that.
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#13 Flexmoney

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

Ya can't go using somebody's "trademarked" phrase. Posted Image (don't ask...not worth the frustration.)
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#14 Ben Stoeger

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:53 PM

Hi folks. I started shooting at USPSA events earlier this summer and have been having a great time, trying to learn something new and improve at each match. Recently I have started working with a training partner timing ourselves and I am consistently at about a 1.9s draw to first shot, and consistenly around a .21/.22 split between shots. I tried a number of different scnearios - and a couple of times just going balls-out as fast as I can - but my splits dont seem to change, just my accuracy... I hope to get out a few more times this year for some additional practice, and then dry-fire and draw practice indoors this winter. I'm open to any advice or comments, but one question I have is at this stage in my progress, is focussing on speed the right thing given the times I have today (although I can see from other posts that a 1.9 definately has room for improvement). Regarding accuracy, these timing tests have been at around 12 to 15 yards on my right while walking a straight line down the target line (something I need a lot of work on)...

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Tom
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Around a .2 Split time at 12-15 yards sounds about right for production. Thats the same pace that most guys B class and up are going to shoot. Points are what is going to make the difference.

1.9 Second draw at that distance is a bit on the slow side. Most competitive guys are going to strive to get under a second in practice and settle for about a 1.2 second draw under match conditions (assuming a hands at side start)

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#15 Cheytac

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 01:42 PM

I have just finished reading BE's book. Accuracy trumps speed. Slow down and work on Double As. Then work on the speed.

If you haven't read BE's book, buy it.








Now, if only I can get myself to slow down and get As...

Edited by Cheytac, 02 February 2012 - 01:45 PM.


#16 Steven Cline

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

Hi folks. I started shooting at USPSA events earlier this summer and have been having a great time, trying to learn something new and improve at each match.


Welcome to the sport! You sound like yer on the right track right there.

Recently I have started working with a training partner timing ourselves and I am consistently at about a 1.9s draw to first shot, and consistenly around a .21/.22 split between shots.


I tried a number of different scnearios - and a couple of times just going balls-out as fast as I can - but my splits dont seem to change, just my accuracy...


That is odd. Usually anyone can increase their speed, but their accuracy suffers. I've not heard of anyone decrease their accuracy without increasing their speed when that was what they were trying to accomplish. I got nothing for you on why.

I might suggest that you intentionally start with splits at 1 second. Then try to shot 'em at .75, then at .5 and then at .33, then .25 and .20 and finally at .17. I mean to suggest you make yourself really aware of the time. Be open to what your eyes are seeing. But "feel" the time.

Understand that the law of diminishing returns; harder to get improvement at advanced levels. Halving your splits from 1 second to .5 is not hard, halving from .5 to .25 isn't either. But halving a split from .33 to .165 is, and halving a .2 to a .1 is really tough. Though they all represent improvement, they really arent' the same. Maybe like comparing learning to ride a bike to doing the Tour de France or advanced BMX tricks?

I hope to get out a few more times this year for some additional practice, and then dry-fire and draw practice indoors this winter. I'm open to any advice or comments, but one question I have is at this stage in my progress, is focussing on speed the right thing given the times I have today (although I can see from other posts that a 1.9 definately has room for improvement). Regarding accuracy, these timing tests have been at around 12 to 15 yards on my right while walking a straight line down the target line (something I need a lot of work on)...


Are you getting A hits or just any old hit? The draw time seemed slow to the split times, but not if you were C & D and M'ing the targets.

I say accuracy. You push to see how fast you can hit A/A. During your dry fire set up 1/3 tgts around the practice area and at 5 yards sight them and press the trigger as if shooting. But only when you see the sights on A zone.
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