40 replies to this topic

[Tim/GA]

Because only a small percentage of active USPSA members attended and thusly were notified of the intended delay in classification update. That left the majority clueless. Also, I did say "or at least notify the membership.". By "the membership" I meant everyone, not simply the participants of the nationals matches.

Yep, a bit more communication would have helped. I have no issue with using the Aug. classifications, only makes sense with the timing. This is the first I have heard that the competitors were notified and glad to hear that.

That still leaves most of the membership not informed. At the very least, notify the club contacts and score uploaders! Our club and out sister club both ran Special Classifier matches that would have been included in the update. We could have let our shooters know about the update change. This time was particularly bad since we have so many new shooters (or shooters who joined USPSA since we were running the special match) who were anxiously looking for their initial classification. As MD, I have responded to quite a few emails this month about this. Commo- something that I think can be improved in general with USPSA (and one reason these forums are so important!).

[Chuck Anderson]

I've shot 20 some odd Nationals Championships in the last 11 years. Normally a couple pistols a year and the occasional MG Nats thrown in. I've been to Vegas, Reno, Barry, Bend, Albany and Tulsa. I've also been to Area matches for A1, A2, A3, and A6. As well as a host of other championship level events, World Shoot, Bianchi Cup, IPSC Nats. Is the USPSA Nats the most professional event I've been to? With the exception of a World Shoot, yes. There are mistakes that happen at any event. Calls that people don't agree with, or things that might have been done differently. Overall, the USPSA Nationals has the least number of issues of any of the matches I've been to. The WS and Bianchi Cup both have a level of pageantry that the Nationals doesn't approach. But there are some really...unusual...decisions made at both. Nationals uses the most experienced staff, is professionally run and is a match that should not be missed. Of the venues, each has it plusses and minuses. I'd rather be in Vegas than anywhere else now. Every Area match has a different feel. Does the Nationals feel like any Area match I've been to, no. I've never been to an Area match with as much competition as you'll find at Nationals, and that includes Area 2.

[joseywales]

- Is it run professionally?

I attended two of the National championships conducted in Tulsa, and two at the PASA facility in Illinois.
Each of those events were well organized and operated. Registration was quick, stages were challenging, RO's were fantastic.

- Does it have that "national championship" event feel or is it just another large shooting competition?

It's both. I think you have to look at it as just another large shooting competition over a 4-day period.
The national championship event "feel" comes from the quality of the competition (you know that the best pistol shooters in USPSA are there);
the quality of the match staff (these guys and gals KNOW the rulebook, and call it by the book w/o favortism); and
the quality of the stage challenges (the stages will test a LARGE variety of shooting skills).

- Besides watching Super Squads, is your experience similar to that of Area championships?

Having been to 4 National championships, 10 or so Area championships, and
another handful of Level II matches - the Area championships are the "best bang for the buck" in USPSA shooting.

[justaute]

Thanks, Chuck. Very helpful perspective.

I've shot 20 some odd Nationals Championships in the last 11 years. Normally a couple pistols a year and the occasional MG Nats thrown in. I've been to Vegas, Reno, Barry, Bend, Albany and Tulsa. I've also been to Area matches for A1, A2, A3, and A6. As well as a host of other championship level events, World Shoot, Bianchi Cup, IPSC Nats. Is the USPSA Nats the most professional event I've been to? With the exception of a World Shoot, yes. There are mistakes that happen at any event. Calls that people don't agree with, or things that might have been done differently. Overall, the USPSA Nationals has the least number of issues of any of the matches I've been to. The WS and Bianchi Cup both have a level of pageantry that the Nationals doesn't approach. But there are some really...unusual...decisions made at both. Nationals uses the most experienced staff, is professionally run and is a match that should not be missed. Of the venues, each has it plusses and minuses. I'd rather be in Vegas than anywhere else now. Every Area match has a different feel. Does the Nationals feel like any Area match I've been to, no. I've never been to an Area match with as much competition as you'll find at Nationals, and that includes Area 2.

[35WLN]

I think that the match was well run but I have a couple of things I think can be improved upon. Their isn't any grandure. Heck there isn't a sign at the entry to the club. At ANY big match I have shot they at a minimum put out a paper target that welcomes you.

I will also say I am very dissapointed in the hotel. Granted the rooms themselves were clean but the rest of the hotel was a dump, including the rickety elevator. The hotel is located at the edge of the hood. I think it should have been looked over before booking, and if it had somebody else should take that job over.

I don't mean this as a dig to revelver shooters, but why is open and revo paired together? It seems like they are the furthest apart you can get. I wonder if some of the stage design was setup with revo shooters in mind.

[ihatepickles]

The 2011 Nationals were held despite not running the September 15th classification report. How many shooters shot the Nationals with an incorrect classification? This never should have happened. The pinnacle event of USPSA shooting didn't follow it's own rulebook.

Please be so kind as to cite the rule that was violated.

Page iii:

The classification system is run between the 10th and the 15th of each month, depending on whether the 10th is on a weekend. ALL scores received in the Sedro Woolley office on or before the 10th of each month are entered into the classification database. Over the next day or two, those scores are checked to ensure that they were entered correctly from the printed summary sheets submitted by clubs. After any corrections have been made, the computer classification program is started to evaluate each member’s current scores and to calculate a new current classification percentage. At the conclusion of this procedure, the new data is compiled and sent to the USPSA web site. Please note that the classification data on the web site is updated only one time each month.

[ihatepickles]

The 2011 Nationals were held despite not running the September 15th classification report. How many shooters shot the Nationals with an incorrect classification? This never should have happened. The pinnacle event of USPSA shooting didn't follow it's own rulebook.

It happened and nothing can change it now. I'd like to know what's going to prevent the same thing from happening in the future? Professionalism is, in part, is admitting mistakes and taking the right steps to insure that they will not occur again.

How far in advance did USPSA advise members the Aug classification would be the one used for the match? I know it was several months. Was it prior to applications being taken? If so, no one who attended the match has any reason to complain. If a competitor failed to notice that detail, it isn't USPSA's fault.

It was not within the USPSA admin staff's power to ignore the rulebook. Prior notice is not sufficient, you can't line-item out pages of the rulebook because it's inconvenient. Ask the second place finishers of each division/classification if they mind going home with a $100 gift certificate instead of the pistol they would've won when the first place finisher had been correctly classified.

I have never run an operation as big as Nationals...have you? If you have, perhaps you can assist USPSA in reducing the timeline needed between the classification run and getting everything ready for registration. Logistically, I think getting things printed up within 2 weeks with the latest classification and dealing with oter classification issues in that short of a period of time is likely problematic, hence using the classification from August.

I already have a job. It's hard and I'm good at it. My boss doesn't accept excuses.

[beltjones]

I put a fair amount of thought into this. Here are my thoughts.

- Is it run professionally?
Parts are run very professionally. The vast majority of the ROs I encountered were very professional. A couple were a little unfair or had strange attitudes with some shooters during the walkthroughs and during load and make ready, but they were very fair and professional after the timer started. Again, that was only two or three of over 60 I encountered. Every single RO worked very hard to make sure their stage was run consistently and correctly.

- Is it unorganized and poorly run?
The match itself is very organized IMO. Targets get changed regularly, the match staff buzzes around bringing water and supplies, props get fixed very quickly, and so on. The biggest area of improvement in my opinion is the awards ceremony. They could do a much better job starting on time, and the remarks by our President could be much better planned, and in better taste. At the LP match at least 6 people received the wrong trophy, which was really unfortunate. The prize table portion was very well organized as others have said, but to be honest I found it embarrassing to have Shooting USA there while certain people on the podium made off-color jokes.

- Besides watching Super Squads, is your experience similar to that of Area championships?
It was very different from an Area Championship. The mix of different stages and the opportunity to compete against a field of the best in the country exposed dozens of holes in my game.

- Does it have that "national championship" event feel or is it just another large shooting competition?
It has a very different feel to it than other matches, one that I think lends itself well to a "Nationals" event. Shooting half-days gives shooters a better opportunity to be prepared mentally and physically each day, and it gives shooters a better opportunity to mentally self-destruct depending on how they handle pressure. Also, having stages submitted by folks from around the country keeps shooters on their toes, as each stage often has a very different feel from other stages in the match.

In summary, the shooting aspect of it was great and well worth the investment of time and money. The awards ceremony has a lot of room for improvement, starting with the gravitas ascribed to it by the organization's leadership.

[Rob Boudrie]

I think it should have been looked over before booking, and if it had somebody else should take that job over.

Someone did check the place out, and I think she did a fine job given the goal - find a basic hotel. The hotel has seen better days, and the review posted on uspsa-nationals.org ahead of the event made this quite clear. It's just my personal opinion, but given that attendance at the nationals is a financial significant sacrifice for many of our members, I favor defaulting to an inexpensive hotel and letting persons who want to pay for a better place opt for a higher end property of their own choosing.

Consider the large number of room-nights used for staff. Moving the event to a more expensive hotel would have resulted in a definite increase in the match fee, so an expensive default would have impacted every competitor, and there would have been no way for any individual to fully opt-out of that pricing decision. The location at the Riviera meant that the only sacrifice those of you who prefer the Ventian or Pallazzio have to make is going to a different hotel for registration and awards.

I guess my tastes are not that high-brow, as the Riviera is on my short list of possibilities for the Shot Show.

[ima45dv8]

BOZ and I stayed next door at Circus Circus! for the 2009 Nationals. It wasn't the nicest place on the strip and sure, it showed it's age a bit (I hope I never reach that point). But in terms of value it more than met our expectations (Keen - you came over...was it intolerable?). I went over to the Riviera one night and didn't find it objectionable.

As a member I appreciate USPSA making the decision to treat the hotel for what it would mostly be used for -- a place to sleep. A high cost for a place to rest isn't in my game plan.

A number of things can matter in LV when you're in the dark with your eyes closed. Decor isn't one of them.

[Neomet]

I'll add as far as the match hotel it was what.... $50 bucks or something a night? As a cheap place to hang your hat at night It was fine which is kind of what I think a match hotel should be. Last time I paid $50 for a hotel room it was a disgusting motel dive that I swear had a chalk outline of a body on the floor. If you are a travel snob, and I proudly put myself in that category, get on Trip Adviser and pick what you like. My wife and I stayed at the Red Rock Casino 5 min from the range and the room was decadent. We also paid $135 a night. Ya pays your price and you picks your poison.

Also, I breezed through registration but got there kinda late in the afternoon.

[mhop]

The 2011 Nationals were held despite not running the September 15th classification report. How many shooters shot the Nationals with an incorrect classification? This never should have happened. The pinnacle event of USPSA shooting didn't follow it's own rulebook.

It happened and nothing can change it now. I'd like to know what's going to prevent the same thing from happening in the future? Professionalism is, in part, is admitting mistakes and taking the right steps to insure that they will not occur again.

How far in advance did USPSA advise members the Aug classification would be the one used for the match? I know it was several months. Was it prior to applications being taken? If so, no one who attended the match has any reason to complain. If a competitor failed to notice that detail, it isn't USPSA's fault.

It was not within the USPSA admin staff's power to ignore the rulebook. Prior notice is not sufficient, you can't line-item out pages of the rulebook because it's inconvenient. Ask the second place finishers of each division/classification if they mind going home with a $100 gift certificate instead of the pistol they would've won when the first place finisher had been correctly classified.

I have never run an operation as big as Nationals...have you? If you have, perhaps you can assist USPSA in reducing the timeline needed between the classification run and getting everything ready for registration. Logistically, I think getting things printed up within 2 weeks with the latest classification and dealing with oter classification issues in that short of a period of time is likely problematic, hence using the classification from August.

I already have a job. It's hard and I'm good at it. My boss doesn't accept excuses.

uspsa explained they would use the august update on every entry form before anybody sent any money in why are you so upset about this

[ima45dv8]

uspsa explained they would use the august update on every entry form before anybody sent any money in why are you so upset about this

Please understand that there were a great many members of USPSA who didn't attend the Nationals event, and as such didn't get a written notification that the updates would be suspended until after the Nationals event.

Would any update that they would have received affect the outcome of the National Championship? No.
But it could have a mighty impact on local matches and bragging rights, which are no less important.

[mhop]

uspsa explained they would use the august update on every entry form before anybody sent any money in why are you so upset about this

Please understand that there were a great many members of USPSA who didn't attend the Nationals event, and as such didn't get a written notification that the updates would be suspended until after the Nationals event.

Would any update that they would have received affect the outcome of the National Championship? No.
But it could have a mighty impact on local matches and bragging rights, which are no less important.

that is true but he is talking about the nationals and awards for it

[ima45dv8]

uspsa explained they would use the august update on every entry form before anybody sent any money in why are you so upset about this

Please understand that there were a great many members of USPSA who didn't attend the Nationals event, and as such didn't get a written notification that the updates would be suspended until after the Nationals event.

Would any update that they would have received affect the outcome of the National Championship? No.
But it could have a mighty impact on local matches and bragging rights, which are no less important.

that is true but he is talking about the nationals and awards for it

I understand, but a number of respondents have raised the issue of untimely classification updates which were solely the result of timing with a Nationals-level event. Personally, I wish that were left out of the discussion of what makes a Nationals event worthy, especially when compared to an Area-level event, but now it's out there.

He asked about more than awards and opened the door for other particulars. If the intent was only to discuss awards, the question could have been worded more narrowly than presented.

[Singlestack]

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