[Rob Boudrie]

From the last thread on the Palms:

Now...I would HIGHLY encourge somebody to start another thread on this topic. I am sure I am not the only one here that would like to hear more about this system and any progress made with it. However, those that are participating in the 'soap opera' can sit out the next round of discussion!

Thanks,
Kyle
(Adminitude)


-----------------------------------

So, here goes:



I spent 3 hours one morning training the Harvard Sportsmens stats team on Palm scoring.

Yesterday was their first attempt to run Palm scoring without having me run the show (or do much of anything except be available as a backup). It was a complete success, with virtually instant results (ready before the props were put away).

This was a match with about 66 shooters and 5 stages (one of which was thrown out due to mechanical prop failure). Our only problem was a single missing score, which was promptly recovered from the paper log and entered.

[Jim Norman]

Without returning to the Soap Opera mode;

How much did you pay to equip your club?

Programs?

Palms? Cost? Number of units? Model?

Back-up? How many?

How many RO's?

Was this a club match?

Did everyone have their own Plam already?

How many RO's per squad?

How many people did you train?

I see a need to train art least 14 people at our club and to have no less than 8-10 Palms. Based on the current costs, I estimate that I am looking at $ 2,000.00 for Palms and at least that much for the software! I do not think that my BOD will approve a $4,000.00 expense to make it easier for me to get the scores out! It takes a couple hours now. It would be nice, but How did you get the costs through?

How do you split up your home team? We have a dedicated group that wants to shoot together. They/we build the matches, it is our time to play.

We all enjoy the groups we shoot with. We do mix a bit, but the cores stay the same. How did you handle that?

How do you know who will and will not be there?

I assume non-dedicated RO's

I have a Palm M130. Great tool, but I can't read it in the sun. Indoors, good, outdoors, sucks.

I shot last year at the A7. Palm scoring does work, no argument there. My problem is more equipment and intellectual property cost related.

[Rob Boudrie]

1). I "paid" for the software by being the first person to step forward and tell him that I would work with him on testing it in the US in return for free licenses for the club hosting the tests.

2). We bought 10 Palm IIIXe's from Palmsetc@aol.com for prices ranging from $65 to $80 each.

3) A few people own Palms, but we used only club Palms at the match.

4) The backup at the local match was a log sheet with hit totals and time. We backup up scores to a master Palm about once per hour at the area match.

5) ROs moved with the squad at the local match (5 pits, 5 cro's + volunteers recruited from the squad). Dedicated RO's for the Area 7 Championship. This club (Harvard) has always spread it's RO's thoroughout the squads.

6) If you want to see how many RO's/staff we have for the A7 check out www.uspsa.org/squadding - everyone who is in squad 50 whose name is not an HTML link is match staff.

7) I can train staff in how to enter scores in 30 minutes or less. The 3 hour training I referred to was training stats staff on match administration and the "back end" stuff that RO's do not need to worry about.

---------------------

We are setting up a network in the clubhouse with a local web server and a few compuers (as many as I can round up), and will use this to provide interim postings throught the 2004 Area 7 Championship at intervals not exceeding 2 hours between postings. We could do it hourly, but the stats staff needs time to hand out in the range officer's lounge .

[Vince Pinto]

Hummmppppfff mmmmhumpf hummmpfff mmmmhumpf !!

[dv8]

Vince Pinto, on May 10 2004, 12:58 PM, said:

Hummmppppfff mmmmhumpf hummmpfff mmmmhumpf !!

Hey, my thoughts exactly!

[Jim Norman]

Rob,

I am not sure what is with the two replies below your's. Not the adult attitude one would expect.

Based upon your answers, I don't think we will be seeing this in use at our club anytime soon. The initial costs, Palms, even at $80 each as well as the program cost are just too high. It is a shame because this is one area that our sport sorely needs, quicker results.

Partly our problem exists because we are remote from the club at our range, we have no power and "office"

As to embedding RO's and having them travel withthe squad, we do that now, but they not always the same RO's from match to match. We run a 7 Stage monthly wioth a side match so the costs as well as the training could be a bit problematic.

Also If I read correctly, you enter the scores inthe Palm as well as logging the total hits, misses, penalties and time on a paper sheet.

Thank you for the quick reply.

Jim Norman

[dv8]

Jim Norman, on May 10 2004, 01:30 PM, said:

...
I am not sure what is with the two replies below your's. Not the adult attitude one would expect.
...

Sorry guys, didn't mean to offend you or anything like that.

The impression I had on the Palm scoring issue is that there are strong advocates and just as strong resistance to it. The analisys you have done in your posts is great and your conclusions are very reasonable as well. In the end it probably will depend on enthusiasm of particular club officials - the PROs and CONs are strong both ways.

I personally would love to see the Palm in use and instant scores available of course, but I understand that there are serious cost considerations, training issues, reliability, outdoor usage constrains, and e.t.c.

To those pressing ahead - best of luck, and I will certainly be happy to help when this initiative reaches my club.

[ivanhu]

Jim Norman, on May 10 2004, 09:30 PM, said:

Based upon your answers, I don't think we will be seeing this in use at our club anytime soon. The initial costs, Palms, even at $80 each as well as the program cost are just too high. It is a shame because this is one area that our sport sorely needs, quicker results.

Jim,

I scored many matches (well over a hundred) of different levels - matches with four to sixteen stages, with 30 to 150 shooters. In most cases, right after the start I entered the stage profiles, then registered the shooters, and finally entered the scores. Each and every time the scores were entered within five minutes after the last shot. In most cases, I had to wait for the last few score sheets, so it was me waiting for the ROs, and not vice versa. Therefore, it's quite possible to prepare the results in time. (Oh, and I did that all alone in most cases, and I was the guy collecting the score sheets, too.)

The Palm Scoring System is fine, but the pricing is not that friendly, and I wasn't sure that the Palm OS was the way to go either. I understand that the development process was very costly, and that money is wanted to be back - yet, I hardly could find even one club here in Hungary that can afford the price of the Palms + the program licenses just to score six stages.

[lynn jones]

jim,

we use the palm scoring system at our club. i bought 4 palms and a portable printer. i have printed out the scores the same day. the great thing about the PSS is that it spread the stats job over several squads and not just one person. the club members are so use to using the palms now, that they want to get rid of the paper back up system.

we shoot 7 stages and have 3 squads. i have the results posted to the clubs website usually before 10:00 am the next day.

lynn

p. s. some people just have issues with the system and the developer of the program.

[Flexmoney]

I just checked Ebay. i watched as one Palm (with lots of extras) went for $46. There are many going for less. I saw a few "Buy it now" prices that were right around $50.

Our club would need 5 Palms. One to use as the Master (I suppose we could get by without a Master...thus only needing 4), and the others to travel with the squads.

I already have two Palms in the house...that aren't doing much except for being nice gadgets.

You never know if any other members/shooter have some Palm laying around that they might bring to matches...unless you ask.

[Jim Norman]

To all,

I think I said, i have seen the program work. It does perform. My problems are with the costs and the required equipment.

We generally run 6-7 squads. I need 8 plus Palms. 1 per squad, a master and no less than one back-up.

I need 7 plus copies of the program IF I understand the structure correctly. I don't get a "Club License" to run the program on the requisit number of Palms. I need one per unit. I need additional licenses for the Master and for the back-up and any member that wants a running total has to but a single user license.

Peter has done a great job creating this and I truly feel bad that he has put out so much money and has so little chance or recovery.

I have a few additinal questions tothe list that Rob answered above.

How do I enter the shooters?

Do I select each from a master DB somewhere?

I suppose I then have to asign at the match each shooter a unique ID so he can digitally sign the sheet?

Seems like a lot of work upfront to me.

What about a new shooter?

Currently I need to enter the Name, Address, Phone, E-Mail, Division and Classifications. Do I now do this on Match day on a Palm? at 15 degress in the snow? or 95 in the rain?

A shooter with a new division?

As to printing the scores at the Match, Unless all the shooters are already in my "Current DB" they may not have the classification they have reported to me. How do I enter Joe Shooter, that has never shot with us before, but claims to be a "C" limited, but has errred and is actually a B? If I print the results and he wins, and we pay on the spot, then I ahve not paid the proper person! Do I need a remote internet connection to update the DB at the range as well?

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Jim Norman, on May 11 2004, 04:30 AM, said:

I am not sure what is with the two replies below your's. Not the adult attitude one would expect.

Hmmm. Another victim of Humour Bypass Surgery .............

[dv8]

Jim Norman, on May 10 2004, 03:05 PM, said:

...
How do I enter the shooters?

Do I select each from a master DB somewhere?

I suppose I then have to asign at the match each shooter a unique ID so he can digitally sign the sheet?

Seems like a lot of work upfront to me.

What about a new shooter?

Currently I need to enter the Name, Address, Phone, E-Mail, Division and Classifications. Do I now do this on Match day on a Palm? at 15 degress in the snow? or 95 in the rain?

A shooter with a new division?

As to printing the scores at the Match, Unless all the shooters are already in my "Current DB" they may not have the classification they have reported to me. How do I enter Joe Shooter, that has never shot with us before, but claims to be a "C" limited, but has errred and is actually a B? If I print the results and he wins, and we pay on the spot, then I ahve not paid the proper person! Do I need a remote internet connection to update the DB at the range as well?

Jim Norman

I have not seen the system in use, but I'd imagine that when shooters are registered, their info would be entered into a laptop or Master or whatever else is available that has to have internet connection. The rest of the Palms only have to be able to synch with the master. When shooters are registered, match info is copied to the individual Palms. When match is over or even after each stage all the Palms are synched with the master and scores are run.

New shooters info can probably be verified on the master with the Web access. Blue Tooth technology would be handy, but probably will cost you a little more.

[BerKim]

Rob, can you add details about how the scores were uploaded and aggregated?

Wireless, cradells, etc..

Thanks... sounds like things went well - congradulations

[Jim Norman]

Ok, so if I understnad correctly, I will need to enter all the shooters into a database BEFORE the match, then using a wireless connection tothe internet update all the divisions and classes.

Do I do this while I am building my stage? While we are deciding who is squaded with whom? While waiting for the last 3 people to sign up 15 minutes after the sign-up closes because they drove 2 hours to get to our match, got caught in traffic and missed a turn and had to go an extra exit (it is NJ after all!)

While the benifit of almost immediate scores sounds great, the upfront labor unless I have dedicated Stats people at the match sounds like too much.

Guess we'll be staying with paper a while longer.

Jim

[EricW]

Rob Boudrie, on May 10 2004, 07:03 AM, said:

Our only problem was a single missing score, which was promptly recovered from the paper log and entered.

Ahhhh.....the miracle of the paper receipt.

Feel the joy.

[Jon Merricks]

Mike Tilley has a program on his store's site that you can down load. It sounded pretty easy when he told me about it. Check it out here.

[Rob Boudrie]

Jim Norman, on May 10 2004, 11:30 PM, said:

Also If I read correctly, you enter the scores inthe Palm as well as logging the total hits, misses, penalties and time on a paper sheet.

Correct. We have a sheet with room for 8 shooters, and a carbonless version with test off "Stub strips" for the major matches.

My goal is to remove paper scoring at local matches (assuming the RD approves, which is allowed under the new rules) for LOCAL matches, but to maintain paper logs at major matches and classifers.

[Rob Boudrie]

To answer some quesitons posed:

1. Shooters were registered in EzWinScore and transferred to the Palms. We pre-registered a few shooters with the name "walkin" prior to the transfer to the Palm. Scores are transferred by competitor number, so we can assign walk-ins one of thesepre-defined competitors, change their name in EzWinScore and their score comes in. Any changes to division, powerfactor, etc. are made only in EzWinScore.

2. The path is stage palm -> master plam -> sync cradle -> MS/Access import -> EzWinScore. The next version of EzWinScore will remove the need for a separate MS/Access step. All publishing of reports; data upload; etc. are done using the EzWinScore features - the Palms are used only for data collection.

3. I have deliberately not commented on the pricing since it that it a matter between Peter Cunningham (www.autoscoringsystems.com) and his prospective customer base. Also, it would be pretty ridiculous for me to comment on the dollar worth of the software when I received copies for my club free of charge.

[Jim Norman]

Rob,

Thank you for your consise answers to the questions asked.

Jim

[Jim Norman]

Vince Pinto, on May 10 2004, 06:23 PM, said:

Jim Norman, on May 11 2004, 04:30 AM, said:

I am not sure what is with the two replies below your's. Not the adult attitude one would expect.

Hmmm. Another victim of Humour Bypass Surgery .............

Nervey considering your response on the other topics. I'd say that there is definately a lack of humor and understanding involved.

Jim Norman

[lynn jones]

This post has been edited by lynn jones: 11 May 2004 - 08:20 PM

[lynn jones]

chris tilley's program is no where near what the PSS program is all about.

sorry chis..

lynn

[zorba]

PSS AND MATCH MAGIC THE WAY TO GO.

[Jim Norman]

May I inquire, what is Match Magic? Is it a part of or requirment for the PSS? or is it a similar program to EzWinScore?

Jim