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AR Recoil Reduction


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#1 TannerB

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:29 AM

Ive searched but didn't find anything. What combinations work the best to mitigate it. I already use comps but do full auto bcg vs semi auto bcg make a difference? what about running different buffer weights? I know a midlength gas system helps alot. Basically what im getting at is I have a 10.5 that shoots extremely flat with no recoil, but my 16 inch is set up for the most part the same but it has more recoil. Ive switched lowers and bcgs in the 16inch from the 10 inch to see if that was it but I really didn't notice anything. My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective. Thoughts?
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#2 ken hebert

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:04 AM

.

Edited by ken hebert, 07 September 2011 - 10:06 AM.

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#3 Jesse Tischauser

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:10 AM

If you buy the JP Enterprises low mass bolt carrier, low mass buffer, and their adjustable gas block coupled with a rolling thunder or SJC/Lund Titan comp you will forget what recoil ever felt like.
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#4 Dwain C. Baer

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:14 AM

Basically what im getting at is I have a 10.5 that shoots extremely flat with no recoil, but my 16 inch is set up for the most part the same but it has more recoil. My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective.


Your theory sounds logical, because of the increased gas from a shorter barrel, the comp is more efficient at reducing recoil. In order for a comp to be effective, there needs to be plenty of gas for it to operate properly. Of course there could be other variables as well. Or I could be wrong... :wacko:

#5 MickB

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:15 AM

What about the JP Bennie Cooley brake?

Mick

If you buy the JP Enterprises low mass bolt carrier, low mass buffer, and their adjustable gas block coupled with a rolling thunder or SJC/Lund Titan comp you will forget what recoil ever felt like.



#6 Jesse Tischauser

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:34 AM

If you buy the JP Enterprises low mass bolt carrier, low mass buffer, and their adjustable gas block coupled with a rolling thunder or SJC/Lund Titan comp you will forget what recoil ever felt like.


Sorry I originally quite reading before I got to the 10" barrel stuff. I'm nit sure if any of this stuff will help in that system. It's more geared towards a rifle length setup.

What about the JP Bennie Cooley brake?

Mick


If you buy the JP Enterprises low mass bolt carrier, low mass buffer, and their adjustable gas block coupled with a rolling thunder or SJC/Lund Titan comp you will forget what recoil ever felt like.


The JP comp is good but the Titan and Thunder are the best. Well at least until the Stag Arms Super 3 Gun Comp comes out. ;)

Edited by Jesse Tischauser, 07 September 2011 - 12:43 PM.

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#7 StealthyBlagga

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:14 PM

...My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective. Thoughts?


IMHO your theory is wrong. The reason the 16" has more recoil than the 10" is because the bullet leaves the barrel faster (because more powder gets burned). Basic conservation of momentum... "for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

For a given barrel length and ammo combination, felt recoil can be mitigated by increasing the weight of the rifle, decreasing the reciprocating mass, adjusting the rifle's gas system to change the nature of the gas impulse (e.g. go to a longer gas system, adjustable gas block etc.), and adding a muzzle brake. The oft-cited solution of a heavier bolt carrier has the effect of softening perceived recoil because the impulse is less sharp - more of a shove than a punch. However, to shorten recovery time, you actually want to go to a lighter carrier so as to minimize the reciprocating mass that hits the back of the buffer tube. A lighter carrier should be coupled with an adjustable gas block so you can trim the gas to the minimum. Of course, this also has the potential to make the rifle less reliable, so think carefully.

Edited by StealthyBlagga, 07 September 2011 - 12:17 PM.


#8 Alaskapopo

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:26 PM

Ive searched but didn't find anything. What combinations work the best to mitigate it. I already use comps but do full auto bcg vs semi auto bcg make a difference? what about running different buffer weights? I know a midlength gas system helps alot. Basically what im getting at is I have a 10.5 that shoots extremely flat with no recoil, but my 16 inch is set up for the most part the same but it has more recoil. Ive switched lowers and bcgs in the 16inch from the 10 inch to see if that was it but I really didn't notice anything. My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective. Thoughts?
Posted Image

What is the weight on the 16 inch gun vs the 10 inch. On the 10 inch you have about 24 ounces in optics it looks like, plus a AFG. Weight has an effect on recoil.
pat

Edited by Alaskapopo, 07 September 2011 - 07:26 PM.

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#9 bigbrowndog

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:09 PM

plus stealthy has a point, in the 10" gun you're basically shooting a 22 mag!! bullet velocity wise, its just louder.

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#10 blind bat

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:10 AM

... Unless you put a can on it. Then it's just cooler and more expensive. :devil:

#11 TannerB

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:41 AM


...My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective. Thoughts?


IMHO your theory is wrong. The reason the 16" has more recoil than the 10" is because the bullet leaves the barrel faster (because more powder gets burned). Basic conservation of momentum... "for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

For a given barrel length and ammo combination, felt recoil can be mitigated by increasing the weight of the rifle, decreasing the reciprocating mass, adjusting the rifle's gas system to change the nature of the gas impulse (e.g. go to a longer gas system, adjustable gas block etc.), and adding a muzzle brake. The oft-cited solution of a heavier bolt carrier has the effect of softening perceived recoil because the impulse is less sharp - more of a shove than a punch. However, to shorten recovery time, you actually want to go to a lighter carrier so as to minimize the reciprocating mass that hits the back of the buffer tube. A lighter carrier should be coupled with an adjustable gas block so you can trim the gas to the minimum. Of course, this also has the potential to make the rifle less reliable, so think carefully.


I see, that makes sense also.

#12 TannerB

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:42 AM


Ive searched but didn't find anything. What combinations work the best to mitigate it. I already use comps but do full auto bcg vs semi auto bcg make a difference? what about running different buffer weights? I know a midlength gas system helps alot. Basically what im getting at is I have a 10.5 that shoots extremely flat with no recoil, but my 16 inch is set up for the most part the same but it has more recoil. Ive switched lowers and bcgs in the 16inch from the 10 inch to see if that was it but I really didn't notice anything. My theory is the 10 inch has more gases hitting the comp so that makes it more effective. Thoughts?
Posted Image

What is the weight on the 16 inch gun vs the 10 inch. On the 10 inch you have about 24 ounces in optics it looks like, plus a AFG. Weight has an effect on recoil.
pat


That is something I forgot to mention, the shorty is a bit heavier.

#13 Alaskapopo

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:19 PM

plus stealthy has a point, in the 10" gun you're basically shooting a 22 mag!! bullet velocity wise, its just louder.

trapr

The velocity loss due to the short barrel should not affect recoil. A 357 snubbie loses a lot of velocity but it still kicks a lot more than a 38. Also the 10 inch guns while they do have reduced velocity they are still quite a step up from the 22 mag.
http://www.accurater....com/223sb.html

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10-INCH Velocity range with a 52 grain bullet was between 2200 fps and 2800 fps.

A 22 mag rifle.
22 WMR has also been loaded with bullet weights of 50 grains (3.2 g) at 1,530 feet per second (470 m/s) and 30 grains (1.9 g) at 2,200 feet per second (670 m/s).

So the shorty .223 has more bullet weight and speed than the 22 mag.
Pat

Edited by Alaskapopo, 08 September 2011 - 06:19 PM.

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#14 shooter steve

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 08:47 AM

I love it when people debate sarcasm.
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#15 Dwain C. Baer

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 10:49 AM

How much does the short rifle weigh?

#16 strangedays

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 02:41 PM

I run a RWS brake with a JP adjustable gas block and a wolf buffer spring. The gun shoots well and works great but thats with a 16" barrel.

#17 Dan Sierpina

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:59 PM

I love it when people debate sarcasm.

I love it when the sarcasm isn't detected. :roflol:
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#18 sierra77mk

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 10:37 PM

What combinations work the best to mitigate it.


Like the others have stated 2 ways to do it and it comes down to what you prefer. Light reciprocating mass and adj. gas block or more mass to delay the BCG and spread the recoil out over time.
When I put an adj. stock on my 16" I also went to a heavy 9mm buffer to get my mid length to feel more like a 20" rifle gas recoil impulse.
Some people think this is "sluggish" compared to an M4 etc... but it works for my style and the matches I shoot.
I can't stand the sharp recoil impulse of a carbine. Gives me a headache and rattles my fillings.
And the 9mm buffer is cheaper, easier and is a simple solution for an adjustable stock rifle.

Does JP even make a low mass carrier/buffer for carbine stocks? Or just rifle length?
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#19 StealthyBlagga

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 10:46 PM

The velocity loss due to the short barrel should not affect recoil.


With respect, you are wrong. This is basic high school physics. From published data for 55 grain XM193 loads, velocity out of a 10" barrel would be around 2750fps compared with about 3100fps out of a 16" barrel. This means the momentum imparted on the rifle (the root cause of recoil) would be approximately 13% greater for the 16" barrel than for the 10" barrel. For sure this is not the whole story when it comes to felt recoil, but it certainly is not insignificant.

#20 Alaskapopo

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 02:55 PM


The velocity loss due to the short barrel should not affect recoil.


With respect, you are wrong. This is basic high school physics. From published data for 55 grain XM193 loads, velocity out of a 10" barrel would be around 2750fps compared with about 3100fps out of a 16" barrel. This means the momentum imparted on the rifle (the root cause of recoil) would be approximately 13% greater for the 16" barrel than for the 10" barrel. For sure this is not the whole story when it comes to felt recoil, but it certainly is not insignificant.

In practical terms longer barreled guns which tend to weigh more have less perceived recoil. Take a snubbie 357 with a 2.5 inc barrel and then shoot the same load in a 6 inch barrel. You will have greater velocity and less recoil with the longer revolver.
Pat

Edited by Alaskapopo, 12 September 2011 - 02:57 PM.

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#21 bgary

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 03:22 PM

In practical terms longer barreled guns which tend to weigh more have less perceived recoil. Take a snubbie 357 with a 2.5 inc barrel and then shoot the same load in a 6 inch barrel. You will have greater velocity and less recoil with the longer revolver.


Less "felt" recoil, sure, because the weight of the gun will dilute the recoil impulse (that whole mass * velocity-squared thing).

But the *actual* recoil ("equal and opposite reaction") will go up with velocity.

According to the laws of physics, the books have to balance. You can't have more velocity in one direction, without more recoil in the other.
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#22 Les Snyder

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 10:41 AM

for a poor boy attempt at recoil reduction.... and I've been told that it is not ever going to be reliable enough for 3 gun competition, but has held together for the last 3 seasons, including Ft Benning at the end of each year...

rifle is RRA 16inch with intermediate gas tap
stock shrouded firing pin bolt carrier group and gas tap
Enedine rifle length hydraulic buffer in an A1 GI stock
ISMI recoil spring
Miculek comp... modified by running the minor diameter drill bit through the entire threaded boss and through the last wiper (this tends to really soften the impulse) front two wipers unchanged.... tap the remaining boss with 1/2x28, and clock with crush washers or shims

with an older 4x32 ACOG the dot does not come off an MGM flash target at 400m...
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#23 djeffers

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:11 PM

I put this in another thread, but I put an endine buffer and a miculek comp and you wouldn't believe the difference. I kept the same gas block and stock BCG. I have since built another rifle (mistakenly with a mid length gas system) and the changes I made to the carbine shoot softer than the mid length system ( all JP parts except barrel). For $135 it will shoot like a new (read different) rifle!

#24 dirtybomb

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 09:48 AM

I ran a 16" Colt with a Surefire brake and an Endine buffer for several season. The gun shot amazingly soft. When I got a new JP 18" rifle length gun with all the light weight parts I was expecting it to shoot even softer. When I shot it I could not tell a bit of difference (in the recoil that is, ever thing else about the JP blows it away). I would give the Endine buffer a try if I was you It really gives the gun a very pleasant recoil impulse. The only complaint I have about the Endine is that the gun did not always lock back on an empty mag. I believe this is due to the fact that it is longer than the stock buffer.

#25 Polytech

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 01:52 PM

I skipped the endine buffer after the reviews I read of them busting. After all they're just a gas shock in AR-buffer form and will eventually fail. Instead I went with an adjustable gas block and the "blue-collar LMOS" (commercial carrier and empty buffer) and my gun doesn't move off target on 200 yard plates.

I'm running an AR-stoner 18" barrel with a Tri-Delta comp and PRI adjustable low profile gas block with a ctr stock.

PT




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