27 replies to this topic

[9mmalpha]

I never believed that I would be needing a class before .. I bought books and DVD , and closely following advices here in this forun.. by just doing that I won the last winter ssp expert class and got bumped to master class ... but what strikes me is that how come that Robert Vogel has that massive points ahead of everybody, he outscore everyone on the match. So I planned taking class with him , I found him very accomodating and very easy to set-up a schedule with,

I choose to set a 1:1 class with him, I travelled by car for 11 hrs to meet him in Lima Ohio,
that guy has a great teaching method , very easy to get along , very intelligent , talented and humble He has strong work ethics despite heavy rain He didnt wasted my time we both got soak in the rain but it didnt stop us training.

afer learning and knowing this guy whom I would rather call "the super Cop" of shooting sport. I was amazed how much more room I have for improvements.
I will be spending the next few months performing his training regime .. Im excited if where this will bring me... so my tips for improvement is Learn from the best on your prospective division, those guys are doing something right that we are doing wrong....

[BLeeber]

I agree. I've been shooting for about 23 years. I taught myself from day 1. Last year I finally gave into my desires and took a training course. I figured I had some ingrained bad habits of self teaching. Actually, I didn't. I just had never taken it to the next level.

I took a Practical Rifle class from Randy Cain and was shocked at how much I learned and how better I got in just 3 days and 450 rounds. I got more out of that 3 day class than probably 15 books and 3 DVD's. Now, I just have to make it to the range more often and practice what I learned.

[CHA-LEE]

In person training will always be better than what you can glean from books or DVD’s simply because the trainer can immediately assess your weaknesses and start working towards repairing them. With books and DVD’s you get a boat load of information but you are missing the key ingredient of being told or shown exactly what you are doing wrong. So you don’t even know what you are doing wrong and thus don’t know what to work on fixing.

Having a trainer observe your shooting skills and have the ability to immediately point out your faults as they are happening, along with effectively communicating what you need to do to fix the issue, is exactly what you are paying a premium for with in person training.

I am a big advocate of getting 1 on 1 training as that allows the trainer to focus 100% on you. Another important aspect to understand is that your brain and logic around changing things will only allow you to absorb so much information at one time. So when I have an opportunity to get some 1 on 1 training I will ask the instructor to assess my shooting then pick only 1 or 2 things that we can work on changing for that training session. For me, this is the most effective method of improving my shooting skills one piece at a time.

[pjb45]

For me, working with the best GMs in the country has helped me with my mental and physical game. My first set of instructions came from Matt Burkett. The class was 'expensive' at the time but it was said, take his class and you will move up a class. It was true and it was not all that expensive!

I then languished for years. I got some great advice some excellent GMs and Masters which improved my game.

But things really took off after spending an afternoon talking with Taran Butler, from there it just progressed to other GMs.

I am in the mood for another class. Like most, I wish I knew way back when what I know now!

Instruction from great teachers will improve your game at every level!

My ephifany came in two parts; five conversations with Brian about trigger control and four or five conversations with Mike Seeklander on training the subconcious mind. No amount or reading could have ever replaced these conversations bu Mike's book comes pretty close.

[9mmalpha]

its amazing isnt it . not unless you experience it you will never really know. I been hearing alot of good stuff about getting a training with Manny Bragg . I just happen to be another Glock person and on my opinion Bob Vogel will be a great Glock Guru for me and I prove my assumption right. Im very thankfull to the man.... by the way Mr Panda .I had been reading alot of your post since I started here in Benos.. I think you have the gift of writing Books are you about to make any??

[Chris iliff]

+1 9mmalpha, I think the same about CHA-LEE.

[Sean Gaines]

+1 9mmalpha, I think the same about CHA-LEE.

He might if you undersize all his brass for him. LOL, Actually reading his diary is a great reading. In fact i think its a great idea for everyone to have a range diary, it really shows how you progress as a shooter, and it also keeps everything in one spot, and allows others to give advice and critique

[CHA-LEE]

I try to convey my discoveries in my Range Diary the best I can. Hopefully this helps others as much as it has helped me. Taking the time to think about my shooting then write it down does a lot to help me get better. Everyone learns differently so it may not work well for everyone. All you can do is give it a try and see if it works for you.

[waktasz]

For me, working with the best GMs in the country has helped me with my mental and physical game. My first set of instructions came from Matt Burkett. The class was 'expensive' at the time but it was said, take his class and you will move up a class. It was true and it was not all that expensive!

I then languished for years. I got some great advice some excellent GMs and Masters which improved my game.

But things really took off after spending an afternoon talking with Taran Butler, from there it just progressed to other GMs.

I am in the mood for another class. Like most, I wish I knew way back when what I know now!

Instruction from great teachers will improve your game at every level!

My ephifany came in two parts; five conversations with Brian about trigger control and four or five conversations with Mike Seeklander on training the subconcious mind. No amount or reading could have ever replaced these conversations bu Mike's book comes pretty close.

Cool. I'm taking a class with Mike in two weeks

[E K]

I have a class with Vogel net week. I can't wait.

[Norone]

Was looking for input on training "whos doing who" and here it is... excellent.
I have several classes done each with Cooley, Burkett, Lamb, and soon Jarret. Would really dig working with Vogel or Sevigny.

[ncboiler]

I am taking a class with Manny Bragg in July, really looking forward to those two days.

Edited by ncboiler, 03 June 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[Chris iliff]

I just did a two day with Manny. Learned so much I'm still figuring it all out.

Damn good instructor and super nice guy. You'll love the experience.

[ncboiler]

I just did a two day with Manny. Learned so much I'm still figuring it all out.

Damn good instructor and super nice guy. You'll love the experience.

Thanks. I definitely enjoyed reading your write up after the class. I tried to get into that class in IN but it was full.

Edited by ncboiler, 03 June 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[Julian DeSouza]

We talked about the already accomplished shooter with years of experience. Does anyone know of an instructor that specializes in beginners. I figuered if you learn the right way out of the gate, life may be easier and more enjoyable.

jdsons

[Leozinho]

We talked about the already accomplished shooter with years of experience. Does anyone know of an instructor that specializes in beginners. I figuered if you learn the right way out of the gate, life may be easier and more enjoyable.

jdsons

You are right that instruction out of the gate will be money well spent. I'd caution that if you go looking for an instructor focused on beginners you may be directed to the NRA/Concealed Carry type. That's probably not the person you want.

I´d say as a beginner, though, you don´t have to travel across the country to shoot with the National or World Champion. See if you can find a local M or GM that's willing to work with you. He'll get you started with sound fundamentals and it will be a while before you outgrow him (if ever.)

[digby7]

anyone know of any instructors in northern california?

[sidnal]

Agreed, taking a class from a good teacher will boost your performance. I've had a few classes with Manny Bragg over the years and he's an awesome teacher. His progressive class pushed me from D to B class in 6 months.

[six-gun shooter]

I took a class with Strader this summer. Definitely worth it, but I think it's something you need to to several times, preferably with different instructors. I hope to take one class every year. Can't afford to travel Outside for them, but a local gunshop/range owner brings some instructors in every year. Not one-on-one though, can't have everything.

[Julian DeSouza]

I am sure this has been brought up several times, one more will not hurt. A little off topic....Is there a difference between Game (IPSC-IDPA) and tactical shooting? I was under the inpression one size fits all. If there is a difference, then the instructor you are looking for should specialize in your field of importance.

Julian

[remoandiris]

Is there a difference between Game (IPSC-IDPA) and tactical shooting?

ABSOLUTELY!! If by "tactical" you mean self defense. The games are NOT real life situations. Clint Smith would be a good choice for self defense shooting training, but he wouldn't even be in my top 50 for USPSA training.

[remoandiris]

I took one of Manny's classes a few years ago. The problem is I didn't do any follow up...meaning I didn't practice what I learned. The lack of progression in my shooting is all my fault.

Before you spend the time and money on a class, you better decide if you'll dedicate the time and resources to practice and improve on what you learned. If not, you may end up spending money for almost no reason.

[spanky]

lots of stuff translates back and forth between the game and the street but i'd definitely not seek a game instructor for street stuff and vice versa.

[Leozinho]

A lot of what we do is relevant to the street, and certainly some isn't. But speed is a tactic, and I don't think the tactical guys put enough emphasis on it. I know people that have been to multiple classes with the top names, and they are slow and not getting faster and would finish near butt neckid last in a USPSA match. Some of those guys that train with the tactical instructors still have pretty weak grips, no concept of calling shots or watching sights lift, etc.

The lack of emphasis on speed is starting to change, with more tactical trainers using shot timers and publishing shooting standards with par times. I don't think many did that five years ago. Some openly talk about the value of competing (Pat McNamara, as one example), and they certainly didn't talk about competing as much five years ago. I believe this is thanks to the USPSA types that some groups brought in as instructors.

That's about all I can say without getting away from the purpose of this forum.
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I tell people to learn marksmanship from shooting USPSA and an USPSA-focused instructor and go to a tactical guy (that uses force on force, rather than mag dumps from 7 yards) for self defense. Unfortunately not many do both well, although there are exceptions.

(I'm a 'tactical' guy first and got into USPSA to improve my shooting. It's pushed me further than I would have pushed myself on my own and I learned more from shooting USPSA than I did from my military or LEO firearm instructors. Your mileage may vary.)

[Xander]

If I may add, taken from an article about Ernest Langdon,

While I've shot with Ernest Langdon on a few occasions, this was the first time I had ever seen him teach a class. The goal of the class was better gun handling, but the underlying focus was always squarely planted in reality. Langdon's techniques are not merely some bastard combination of high-speed game playing and tactical dogma. Instead, he teaches a system that enables the shooter to call on the same core skills regardless of the situation. In other words, Langdon doesn't teach you gun handling skills which help you win IDPA matches at the expense of losing a real world gun fight.

Much of Langdon's doctrine is based on his years teaching the HRP course, where a big part of his job was to seek out information on real world "civilian" combat (both armed and unarmed). This data was then examined with the aid of extensive force-on-force exercises and finally analyzed by Langdon, a combat veteran himself. Some examples of his non-gaming mindset:

Your focus in a fight must be on taking out the threat, not worrying about how not to get shot. You must work from the assumption that in a gun fight, you will get shot but must fight on anyway.
"The best cover is rapid accurate fire directed at your enemy."
When you need to be shooting, you need to be shooting. Anything that takes time and effort away from that is a drain on precious resources.
Langdon also lectured about the "three levels of performance," the third and highest of which is subconscious performance … in other words, the ability to perform without conscious thought. Langdon taught that in a real fight, you will perform at the third level whether you want to or not because your mind will be too occupied to concentrate on things like sight pictures and trigger control. So in a real fight, you will shoot only as well as you can on a subconscious level. That does not mean that sight pictures and trigger control are unimportant! Only that you must train yourself to a level that they happen without conscious thought … an ingrained habit of putting the sights on the target, looking through them, and pulling the trigger with no more thought than "shoot that!"