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On-Line Self Serve Squadding


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#1 sperman

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 07:59 PM

As a shooter, I'm a big fan of the on-line self-serve squadding. I know what day I'm shooting and who I'm squadded with. If I have to make a change, I can do it without bothering the MD. (It would also be nice to be able to change divisions on-line.)

I'm not a match director, but some of the busiest match directors in the sport say self-serve squadding doesn't work for them. Other match directors say it works just fine. I wish the people who have problems with SSS would communicate those problems to the programmers. I wish the programmers would respond to those concerns and make the necessary changes.

I personally think SSS should be required for any Level 2 or higher match, but not until the issues MD's have with it have been addressed. At the very least, USPSA nationals should use their own squadding system, but if Troy says it's a pain for him to use, someone should be able to address those issues.




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#2 Charles Bond

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:24 PM

Isn't the entire point of self squadding that Troy (and any other MD) does not have to use it if the shooters squad themselves?

I guess someone has to put the super squads together but that is about 90% less work than putting everyone in squads.

Troy if your out there, chime in.

#3 DrawandDuck

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:47 PM

I have used it for 2 state matches (136 shooters was the largest) without ANY PROBLEMS.....only way to go in my opinion.

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#4 cheryl

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:48 PM

Self-squadding is not just about who you want to shoot with. It also provides a view of the division folks are shooting in. I'm planning on shooting Revolver, but if I'm the only Revolver shooter, well, I would change to Limited. Self-squadding is a simple way to check these things without e-mailing the MD. I would really like to see A-6 continue to use it.

Edited by cheryl, 01 February 2011 - 08:50 PM.

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#5 wgnoyes

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 10:17 AM

Isn't the entire point of self squadding that Troy (and any other MD) does not have to use it if the shooters squad themselves?

I guess someone has to put the super squads together but that is about 90% less work than putting everyone in squads.

Troy if your out there, chime in.

Well, for super squads, you simply lock out the squad numbers you want, and put the people you've registered into those squads as desired with the checkbox turned on that prevents them being accidently moved elsewhere.

USPSA can't use their own self-service squadding system for a nationals because they use a MSACCESS registration system instead that someone wrote for them some years back to register people for the match. Because the data exists in the access system instead of ezws, SSS doesn't have a connection to it. (Side Note: they SHOULD URGENTLY drop that access system; it always screws up multiple things in the generated match file that often requires external surgery be performed on the live match file AT the match before scores can be produced. That's happened twice and both times, if there hadn't been someone there with the knowledge and software required to fix the data integrity issues, the match would have been lost!)

USPSA is also afraid of trying SSS again on the nationals because the first time they tried it half a decade ago, it did honestly screw them up. But those problems have LONG SINCE been fixed, and USPSA frankly needs to get over it. But again; that would require them to drop the MSACCESS system.

I've put this out here before, but again here is the flow of the SSS system as it relates to ezwinscore:

  • SSS assumes you register your competitors in ezwinscore. So you get a batch of registration forms and put them in.
  • You then upload your competitors to SSS. They get notified by the SSS that they're out there now and please have at. You do assign an initial squad primarily for the purpose of grouping together various squad buddies, but they can change that later, as designed and intended.
  • People squad themselves.
  • You download and import the customers' changes back into your match file. This is so that on match day, you can print out your squad listings for the CRO's and RM's.
  • Repeat process from step 1 as necessary.
Trust me, folks; it works. We've squadded a half dozen Area 6 championships this way all of which were the size of any current nationals in terms of number of competitors, and it works just fine.

(SSS also offers the ability to verify your competitors' uspsa numbers and expiration dates, so you DON'T have to email or fax in a competitor listing to USPSA the week of the match to get them to painfully look at and check each person you have. This feature also works very well. ...)

But if you just simply HAVE to register people in an excel spreadsheet or some other external non-ezws system, then no, SSS doesn't help you. But there is just no reason not to register your people directly into ezwinscore anymore. Cindy for the area 6 championships maintained a separate spreadsheet for shirt orders, but you can fill that with the names and whatnot out of ezws with the export registration information feature, which creates a TSV or CSV file that you can read directly into excel.

Bottom line. If you're registering people directly into ezws, then SSS works VERY WELL INDEED. If on the other hand you're still registering folks externally in a spreadsheet or some other system that may or may not produce a usable accurate match file, then you're doing it the hard way, SSS won't be much use to you, and you REALLY NEED to rethink how you manage the registration process of your match.

Edited by wgnoyes, 02 February 2011 - 10:19 AM.

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#6 wgnoyes

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 10:22 AM

... (It would also be nice to be able to change divisions on-line.)..

Yeah, that would be nice indeed! I'll ask Rob about that.
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#7 Charles Bond

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 05:03 AM


... (It would also be nice to be able to change divisions on-line.)..

Yeah, that would be nice indeed! I'll ask Rob about that.


Maybe I am missing something but why would this be a helpful software change? While I can see it might make things easier for the registar, at most matches you are only going to get 5 or 6 who later change divisions which is easy enough to do at registration. And based on my experience shooters decide to change at the last minute in the parking lot anyway.


Would it not be a better project just to get all of the matches using electronic squading and reporting results and/or classifiers in that manner?

#8 Jim Norman

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 05:35 AM

How about combined with getting USPSA to register directly into EzWin, Oh wait, that is the real PIA, how about we fix registering shooters into EzWin so that SSS will work?

We have an online form to register our shooters, it is downloaded to excel, then sorted on last name, then I have to load each shooter one at a time into EzWin. If the scoring program had a mapped import function all the matching registrants could be loaded worth a couple clicks, non-matches, name vs number conflicts could be flagged and a report generated. make those corrections and re-import.

Then SSS might work and with a little more effort we might even be able to avail ourselves of it at local matches. Last item would be to post scores to USPSA and at least at the Level 1 matches post the combined scores. One more (really the last) why not have a single click to produce all the current files for posting? Why do I have to go through 6 divisions for both finals and stages and then do combined as well. this should be a one click function.

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#9 Chris Keen

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 06:22 AM

Then SSS might work and with a little more effort we might even be able to avail ourselves of it at local matches. Last item would be to post scores to USPSA and at least at the Level 1 matches post the combined scores. One more (really the last) why not have a single click to produce all the current files for posting? Why do I have to go through 6 divisions for both finals and stages and then do combined as well. this should be a one click function.

Now off to work

I'll partially agree with you on that last point Jim. Except for one thing ..... I'm not sure how you do it, but when I produce the posting files, I use the "CLUB.TXT" button. That spits out a file for every division in attendance at the match, generally all 6 div. Then I only need to make a file for the classifier upload, match upload, and combined overalls (which we all know is optional). So yeah it would be nice to have just 1 button, but it's really not that bad once you learn a couple of shortcuts like the Club.txt button.

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#10 sperman

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 07:24 AM



... (It would also be nice to be able to change divisions on-line.)..

Yeah, that would be nice indeed! I'll ask Rob about that.


Maybe I am missing something but why would this be a helpful software change? While I can see it might make things easier for the registar, at most matches you are only going to get 5 or 6 who later change divisions which is easy enough to do at registration. And based on my experience shooters decide to change at the last minute in the parking lot anyway.


Would it not be a better project just to get all of the matches using electronic squading and reporting results and/or classifiers in that manner?


I agree that it's not something that wouldn't be used often, but it seems like something that could be easily added. The info is already in the SSS database, it would be a matter of adding an extra drop down list on the change form.

I figure anything the shooters can do on their own is one less thing to annoy the MD/Stats person with.
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#11 wgnoyes

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:00 AM



... (It would also be nice to be able to change divisions on-line.)..

Yeah, that would be nice indeed! I'll ask Rob about that.


Maybe I am missing something but why would this be a helpful software change?

We would get anywhere from 2 to 3 dozen division changes over the course of the multi-month project that represented registering people for the Area 6 Championship.
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#12 wgnoyes

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:15 AM

How about combined with getting USPSA to register directly into EzWin, Oh wait, that is the real PIA,[SNIP}

No it's not, either, but we're not getting into THAT again. And if you ever actually saw the MSACCESS system that USPSA uses for the Nationals regsitration and how it operates, you'd then declare ezws was the greatest thing you've ever seen in your life.
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#13 wgnoyes

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:19 AM

...but it seems like something that could be easily added. The info is already in the SSS database, it would be a matter of adding an extra drop down list on the change form.

It's actually a 2-front change. We'd (well, "they'd") have to change the web php scripts to add the division field to the download file, and then change ezws to accomodate the extra field in the record layout. You'd then have to re-run classification updates against the match to account for the changed divisions.
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#14 Jim Norman

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:27 AM


Then SSS might work and with a little more effort we might even be able to avail ourselves of it at local matches. Last item would be to post scores to USPSA and at least at the Level 1 matches post the combined scores. One more (really the last) why not have a single click to produce all the current files for posting? Why do I have to go through 6 divisions for both finals and stages and then do combined as well. this should be a one click function.

Now off to work

I'll partially agree with you on that last point Jim. Except for one thing ..... I'm not sure how you do it, but when I produce the posting files, I use the "CLUB.TXT" button. That spits out a file for every division in attendance at the match, generally all 6 div. Then I only need to make a file for the classifier upload, match upload, and combined overalls (which we all know is optional). So yeah it would be nice to have just 1 button, but it's really not that bad once you learn a couple of shortcuts like the Club.txt button.


I may have to have my web people look at re-working how our web is set up so that I can do that. as it stands, I need to do the 14 files and upload them. We post to our own site in HTML we don't generally post o n USPSA for a few reason, one being everyone wants the combined reqults and USPSA doesn't allow for that.

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#15 bbbean

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:57 AM

We post to our own site in HTML we don't generally post o n USPSA for a few reason, one being everyone wants the combined reqults and USPSA doesn't allow for that.


If you're already posting in HTML, why not post combined results and then a link to the USPSA page for the match? That's what we're looking at doing for this season.
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#16 Jim Norman

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 09:47 AM

Two places to go for our shooters. Rather make it one click to see the results. If USPSA would post combined scores that would be the solution. One click shopping!

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#17 wgnoyes

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:49 AM

Two places to go for our shooters. Rather make it one click to see the results. If USPSA would post combined scores that would be the solution. One click shopping!

I wouldn't hold my breath. I believe the BoD determined years ago they weren't going to display combined results. Plus that would require an additional ezws change which might not be so easy. (Calculate by division, flip to combined, calculate again, create one file from both.) I don't think it's going to happen.

As to html results, when we post results outside of uspsa.org, we just print results to adobe acrobat, combine the files and upload that. I haven't used html results in over a decade, not since I got my first version of acrobat. I'd MUCH RATHER look at a page that's formatted exactly how it would come off the printer rather than ezws' attempt at html, which always had to be screwed with to make it fit for upload and display.
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#18 Mark K

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:20 AM

With this being our first year doing the Alabama Sectional at EAGC, this is my first time on the admin side of the fence, and I have to say I like it.

My only change would be: since this is a State/Sectional match I would like to have a way to annotate in EZWINSCORE which shooters are eligible for the state/sectional title - marking those that are not as Foreign shooters just does not seem right :devil: :devil:


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#19 NMBOpen

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:48 AM

With this being our first year doing the Alabama Sectional at EAGC, this is my first time on the admin side of the fence, and I have to say I like it.

My only change would be: since this is a State/Sectional match I would like to have a way to annotate in EZWINSCORE which shooters are eligible for the state/sectional title - marking those that are not as Foreign shooters just does not seem right :devil: :devil:


Mark K.


I am keeping a parallel Excel spreadsheet with my entries, independent of EzWin. That's where I track Section eligibility, shirt orders, meal tickets, match fees, entry timestamps, and notes on issues to be resolved at check-in. This is for the High Desert Classic/NM Sectional.
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#20 Mark K

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 02:15 PM


With this being our first year doing the Alabama Sectional at EAGC, this is my first time on the admin side of the fence, and I have to say I like it.

My only change would be: since this is a State/Sectional match I would like to have a way to annotate in EZWINSCORE which shooters are eligible for the state/sectional title - marking those that are not as Foreign shooters just does not seem right :devil: :devil:


Mark K.

Mark

I am keeping a parallel Excel spreadsheet with my entries, independent of EzWin. That's where I track Section eligibility, shirt orders, meal tickets, match fees, entry timestamps, and notes on issues to be resolved at check-in. This is for the High Desert Classic/NM Sectional.


Yeah, we are doing the same, for the same things.
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#21 wgnoyes

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:10 PM

With this being our first year doing the Alabama Sectional at EAGC, this is my first time on the admin side of the fence, and I have to say I like it.

My only change would be: since this is a State/Sectional match I would like to have a way to annotate in EZWINSCORE which shooters are eligible for the state/sectional title - marking those that are not as Foreign shooters just does not seem right :devil: :devil:

You don't need to do that. Just put in the competitor's address, including city and state. I have a .asp script that I run at the end of the match that spits out a match director's awards summary page, which includes the competitors' state in the listing, so it's easy to see who is from AL and who isn't.
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#22 sperman

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:14 PM

Bill,

What would it take to get that functionality built into EZWinScore, instead of having to run a custom script?
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#23 shootingchef

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:17 PM

Good stuff here. Thank you.

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#24 wgnoyes

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:49 AM

Bill,

What would it take to get that functionality built into EZWinScore, instead of having to run a custom script?

Damned if I know. I've asked many, many times. I've send along my reports, which are based on the specifications in the club program manual. I've used them to give to Michael Voigt at the Nationals so he would be less likely to screw up the awards ceremony. They know what I've suggested many times, and all it is is just a bunch of SQL queries against the competitors table in the database.
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#25 Skydiver

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:11 PM

All of a sudden this topic has become interesting to me as I figure out how to run a Level II match from the stats perspective.
Is there a sandbox of the Online Self-Serve Squadding that we can play with and practice uploading competitor info and downloading squad data from? Some of the questions below maybe answered by being able to play with the sandbox.

The page at http://www.uspsa.org...mdOverview.html seems to say that I can upload multiple times. Is an email sent to all competitors each time, or it only sends to the new ones on each upload? How do I get notified of bounced email? What does the email look like?

Also, is the download a one time event? The same page recommends downloading only when the match has been locked. Can I download the squadding data and import that file into EzWinScore before the match is locked or will EzWinScore only allow one import per match?

Is there a little more info an the "Lost PW info" section? Is there only one password for all competitors for the match, or are there individual passwords per shooter per match?

Is that "shoot time" essentially the "tee off" time? Or is it the block of time they are shooting? How do I setup one or more squads that shoot half on day 1 and half on day 2?




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