46 replies to this topic

[wgnoyes]

All of a sudden this topic has become interesting to me as I figure out how to run a Level II match from the stats perspective.
Is there a sandbox of the Online Self-Serve Squadding that we can play with and practice uploading competitor info and downloading squad data from? Some of the questions below maybe answered by being able to play with the sandbox.

No, there's not.

The page at http://www.uspsa.org...mdOverview.html seems to say that I can upload multiple times. Is an email sent to all competitors each time, or it only sends to the new ones on each upload? How do I get notified of bounced email? What does the email look like?

Either or. You can decide to send to the people you're uploading new or not send at all. You can also send a separate blast of your choice of content to all of your registered competitors.

Also, is the download a one time event? The same page recommends downloading only when the match has been locked. Can I download the squadding data and import that file into EzWinScore before the match is locked or will EzWinScore only allow one import per match?

No, otherwise no one (including me) would ever use it. Again. The cycle is: 1) Register a batch of people in ezws; 2) Upload to self-service squadding; 3) Squad people yourself initially in self-service squadding according to "squad with requests"; 4) Let people move themselves around as they like; 5) download and import back into ezws; 6) Go back to step 1 and repeat as required by more entries showing up in the mail.

Is there a little more info an the "Lost PW info" section? Is there only one password for all competitors for the match, or are there individual passwords per shooter per match?

Individual passwords per competitor, generated by the web application, which you can reset as you like.

Is that "shoot time" essentially the "tee off" time? Or is it the block of time they are shooting? How do I setup one or more squads that shoot half on day 1 and half on day 2?

Shoot time is the starting time of that particular squad at their first stage on their first day of competition. Just block off a series of squads and label them (as an example) "Sat AM/Sun AM" or "Sat PM/Sun AM". Others you'll label as "Friday All-day", "Sat All-day", etc.

[mra8541]

I think its great... Shooters get what they want and the MD doesn't have to hassle with it... Everyone SHOULD be happy...

[Skydiver]

Just to make sure I'm not missing something... I'm guessing that the squadding information is one way: from the SSS into EzWinScore. There is no squadding information uploaded from EzWinScore to SSS. Is this observation correct?

I tried assigning shooters in an old match database to various squads, and then looked at the contents of the upload_squadding.txt. It looks like there is no squadding information there at all. Only some basic information about the shooter. I was expecting to see the last "1" in each row to change after I'd assigned squads, but apparently, that "1" represents something else. (eg. It's not the squad number.)

[wgnoyes]

Correct. You can squad all you want within ezws, but when you download self service squadding, it'll overlay all that. SSS is the controlling source for all squadding in the match until the time you cut off SSS entirely a couple of days before first shot fired so that you can print your competitor labels.

[aztecdriver]

Here's an idea - this may have been mentioned before, but my search foo is broken - why couldn't we centralize major match registration? Login to USPSA.org, find a major match you want to attend, click the registration link. It auto-fills in the information it already knows about, select the preferred squading strategy that's available, processes a payment or offers a "mailed check" option.

I am TOTALLY naive to the issues of ezws, but it seems to me if SSS shoves data to ezws and we can use a web-form to feed SSS, we can avoid having to dump back and forth, stop having shooters from spending all that postage for mailing paper forms around and having a match administrator from collecting said forms, punching keys and dealing with the headache.

I take criticism well - so fire away!

[Jim Norman]

The main problem is that EzWin does not get the info 'pushed in' from SSS. The information is loaded by hand keystroke by keystroke into EzWin, then EzWin Exports the data required for squading to SSS. after the shooters have squadded, the information is pulled back into EzWin.

Then again, I could be wrong.

In order to accomplish what you are asking would require that EzWin be able to be easily populated from a webform, then the rest would be easy and that would be nice regardless of SSS.

Jim

[Chris Keen]

For whatever reason USPSA is resistant to change. But it sounds good.

[sperman]

I had a long talk with someone who runs many major matches for USPSA. I will attempt to summarize what I took away from that conversation.

Two disclaimers:
1. The opinions stated below aren't necessarily mine.
2. I am not attempting to speak for this person. I would like to convey what I took away from the conversation as the shortcomings of EZWinScore and SSS. I am not trying to be their advocate, or nor am I claiming I have everything right. I got the impression the person would state their opinions themsleves on their schedule calmed down.

One final disclaimer. I have never run a match of any level, nor have I used EZWinScore, so I have no first hand knowledge of most of this stuff.

The problems broke down into 2 basic arguments. The first of which is trying to make sure the shooters get what they request. It's already been covered in this thread that if you don't "pre-fill" the online squadding it's possible for a group not to be able to squad together, or even possible for someone not to get to shoot on the day they requested.

The second point is that EZWS is a great match scoring program. It is not, however very good at managing a major match. There are many things involved in running a major match that aren't covered by the EZWS database. (Who purchased a T-Shirt, what size shirt, who purchased lunch tickets, etc.) To use EZWinScore means doing the same data entry twice.

[Chris Keen]

The second point is that EZWS is a great match scoring program. It is not, however very good at managing a major match. There are many things involved in running a major match that aren't covered by the EZWS database. (Who purchased a T-Shirt, what size shirt, who purchased lunch tickets, etc.) To use EZWinScore means doing the same data entry twice.

That last part is not exactly true. EzWinScore has a couple of very nice "Report" utilities that can create very colorful graphs, but also can export to a CSV, or a TSV file which can then be imported to a spread-sheet (like Excel) where you can keep track of shirts, lunch tickets, etc.

[wgnoyes]

...
That last part is not exactly true. EzWinScore has a couple of very nice "Report" utilities that can create very colorful graphs, but also can export to a CSV, or a TSV file which can then be imported to a spread-sheet (like Excel) where you can keep track of shirts, lunch tickets, etc.

Which is exactly what we did to create shirt spreadsheets for the years worth of area 6 championships we did.

[Jim Norman]

And why should have to export data to a different spreadsheet and massage it outside Ez? Why don't we have a match management package? We shol dnot have to be software specialists to run a match.

[sperman]

This year the Single Stack Nationals used self serve squadding. At the awards ceremony, they said they wouldn't do it again. Can we get this software upgraded so that it is as convenient for the stats crew as it is for the competitors?

[wgnoyes]

Well then they didn't understand how to use it. We ran USPSA's self-service squadding very successfully 6 times to register and squad a total of 2100+ entries in the 2005-2010 Area 6 Championships, plus numerous Lvl2 and Lvl3 matches. We continue to use it to squad the state match every year. It works.

[sperman]

BIll,

I understand that you've made some tools that work well for you. Unfortunately a number of other people who run large matches (nationals, area matches, etc.) have said it doesn't work for them. Rather than having 2 separate programs and a bunch of database tools as interim steps, can't we work on a integrated solution?

EZWinScore is getting a little long in the tooth. Maybe it's time for a new version. Not adding more patches to the existing software, but a ground up re-write. (Maybe I should start a new thread on what should be included in the next version of EZWS.)

[Jim Norman]

Oh what a can'o'worms you have opened.

Actually since the addition of the import patch there isn't TOO much I would need. It would be very helpful if the import patch actually updated the database as opposed to just the match. That way we could ADD people to our DB.

Having the DB accessible similar to Outlook or some other PIM so that we could edit and search the DB

Adding an auto-fill function so that when you are looking for a particular person to add to a match you could just start typing First, Last or USPSA number.

The ability to print out selected labels for mailing

A way to select the match winners in each division and then in each class within the division and print to the required depth.

[wgnoyes]

...I understand that you've made some tools that--<snip>

No, I don't use any extra user-written utilities for self-service squadding. It and ezws work just fine together without any additional coding. If others are saying it doesn't work for them, that's because they aren't using it correctly. Please understand this isn't a pride-of-authorship thing; I haven't written the first line of code for ezws nor for self-service squadding. We use it as-is quite successfully.

Edited by wgnoyes, 07 May 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[shootingchef]

I do find it strange that the HQ of our sport finds the squadding software that THEY developed and managed too hard to Manage. For what it is and how it works, I'm fine with it. I would like to see a more web, access database friendly service........

[wgnoyes]

Oh what a can'o'worms you have opened.

Actually since the addition of the import patch there isn't TOO much I would need. It would be very helpful if the import patch actually updated the database as opposed to just the match. That way we could ADD people to our DB.

Having the DB accessible similar to Outlook or some other PIM so that we could edit and search the DB

You can export data from masternames.db now and search all you want in a spreadsheet or database program. No, you can't mass-edit the masternames.db, and I can't see a reason why you would want to.

Adding an auto-fill function so that when you are looking for a particular person to add to a match you could just start typing First, Last or USPSA number.

You can do that now in Practiscore, and I should think you'd be ecstatic over that for level1 match registration. (Time to scrap the crappy old palms and come into the 21st century, Jim!) Export/import your masternames.db into a practiscore auto-complete database and you'll get exactly what you describe. For level 2 and above major matches, you still need to do registration in ezws, and quite frankly THAT doesn't need a whole lot of "hurry up people are waiting" features, because it's a months-long project in and of itself.

The ability to print out selected labels for mailing

Until you get it, print your labels to pdf and then pick and choose groups that way. Or more preferably, export your competitor list info and create mail merge labels externally. They didn't create the "export competitor info" feature for nothing, you know.

A way to select the match winners in each division and then in each class within the division and print to the required depth.

In other words, a Match Director's Awards Script. I agree, and I wrote one in .asp; I need to re-write it for php. Yes, I'd like to have that as well in ezws. I've asked multiple times. Why don't you have a go at it? The response you'll get is every match director does it differently. Yeah, they do, but at least give me something to work with. My suggestion is based on the Nationals. Top 16 (includes women if one ever breaks into the Top 16, which is much more likely in a state or area championship), Top 8 Women, Top However-Many in each class based on number of entries in that class/division (automatically excludes those who were match winner or title champion, and "U" is not a class), and top however-many in each category.

[Flexmoney]

The response you'll get is every match director does it differently.

...LOL... I guess they are right...

A. Yes, they do it wrong. (mistakes)
B. They do it differently, for lack of a template.
C. Oh shit...quick, print me out a list of the finals!

[Jim Norman]

With regard to the Winners list. Top 16, Top in registered categories assuming the USPSA minimums are met, Top 3 (5) in each class in each division. The MD can choose how far down in each class to pay, but isn't the awards based upon 5 in division, 3 in class, then 8 in class then 15 in class? If not, not a problem, jut printout the top 5 in each class and the total number in class. The MD can easily select from that list.

As for PractiScore, what hardware? I've been more than a little busy and have not followed real closely what is happening with this. The Palms work and so far as I was aware, I have to submit the file from EzWin for the classifiers and mission count.

Mass editing, no, but when I open the DB to look up and edit a shooters info, it is a pain. If one could open the form and start typing the member number, last name or other info that would cause the form to populate...

As for self squadding, the problem I understood was not with HQ, but with 'Us" we kept changing our minds and then after squadding was closed, we cried about not being squaded where we wanted to be so HQ had to or decided to re-squad people after the fact.

[wgnoyes]

So in other words, self-service squadding works and competitors continue to demand squadding changes after squadding has been closed, even though they had plenty of time to put themselves where they want. That is, a typical major match. (Folks, we gotta close squadding SOMETIME to print our squadding lists for the stages and labels for competitors!)

[Alan Adamson]

So in other words, self-service squadding works and competitors continue to demand squadding changes after squadding has been closed, even though they had plenty of time to put themselves where they want. That is, a typical major match. (Folks, we gotta close squadding SOMETIME to print our squadding lists for the stages and labels for competitors!)

To add insult to injury ...

I too find this annoying... We even have it with Practiscore... We've been using ShootnScoreit.com to register and let people squad... And this next math (saturday). I'm putting my foot down. A) Friday I'll be moving a few people to balance squads on SSI, the export the files, import them to EZWS in prep for the Match on Saturday and *NO* moves that day, you shoot with where you put yourself..... Tough beans, you've had 3 weeks to coordinate this if you can't get it right... Tough ...

We'll see how far that gets me .... (yeah, I'm probably going to cave a bit, but not a lot, it's tough to talk walk up registrations and then have to juggle squads *AND* get devices out to score.

Jim, (what follows is practiscore related) Most of us on the East coast are using Nook Simple Touchs. They are Approx $50-60 for a refurb on ebay, and they take all of about 5-10 mins to root and get ready for use. They are white paper readable in bright light (outdoors) and once you get over the refresh of the eink display, knock on wood, they've worked great. We had our very first match (107 shooters, 7 squads - big squads) have an issued with one unit, but we follow the rule of backing up with a simple paper strip sheet (yes, even on level 1 matches - good training for our state match upcoming). So even with the problem that we had, we had the match scored, and pushed out about 2 hours after everyone left the range. Normally, we have it done *before* setup is complete

If I can help with the hardware, or rooting in anyway, just let me know. Lately, people have been buying units, sending them to me, I root them and get them back to you, all configured and ready to go.

Alan