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Trying to shoot like you dont care.


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#1 chefcs5

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:05 PM

Ok when i started caring how I shot and practiced and watched videos and took classes I got better but I also made bigger mistakes. So I read a lot on here about people saying shoot like you dont care. I didnt get it. I was at my frst mjor of 2010, I tried my hardest tried to push it, And I failed, not just failed but super failed. Had no fun and was not fun to be arround, and thats not me.So I was at the 2nd major match and just went to have fun. Didnt evn care if I came in last about 12 stages in I realized I was shooting the same times as some of the A class Limited guys and B class open guys in my squad, Im a C class production at the time. Started talking to some guy guys and my hits were there also. They started saying I could possibly win my class. So on the last 2 stages I tried to do my best, not push it but tired not to fail...and I did. first miss of the match first missed reload first bobbled reload, first miss on steel. I sucked. both of the last 2 stages. I got 4th in my class. 3 match points out of 3rd and 10 from 1st. So I went to my 3rd major of the year. And I TRIED to shoot like I didnt care. It didnt work.. I did care. I did wanna have fun but I had just made B and wanted to not come in last. I was really bad again. Fast forward to the last match of the year. My wife is now shooting I spent most of the time helping her. I didnt even do my own walk throughs just helped her. I didnt care how I shot, heck I didnt even have a plan. I came in first over all. yes it was only a local match but there was 1 Master, 3 A's and 5 other B's most of who usually smoke me. I get the shoot like you dont care but how can I dod that when I do care.? I cant seem to get to that. If I had done my own walk throughs and had a plan but still shot like I didnt care maybe I would have been even better???? Could I have done this at a major? Can I do this at a major? Cani keep it up at locals? How do I not care when I really do?
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#2 mhop

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:18 PM

maybe because you are trying to not care and that manifests into caring
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#3 Kyle O

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:18 PM

Same thing happens for me. I just care about having fun now, and all seems to be going well. But, if I ever start to care about winning, I don't shoot well either.

Last weekend, I shot a local match, and my ONLY goal was to go AS FAST AS I COULD! I ended up with 2 mikes per stage, and not so great hits, but I needed to change gears (flushing out old IDPA habits), and figured this was a good way to do it. I cared, just not about winning, I am working on going fast for now, and thats it. Next month, who knows!
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#4 twodownzero

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 01:40 AM

It's so true. Stress and anxiety really destroy performance. I think I'm going to start dry firing like I care, and shooting matches like I want to hang out with the people at the club.
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#5 Sean Gaines

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:11 AM

to me there is no such thing as shooting like you don't care, subconsciencly we all care. If you don't care then you wouldn't take the time to practice, watch videos, pay money to shoot the match, travel, look at the match results etc. If we want to hang out with the buds you can do that anywhere.

What people mean by this, is just shoot your game. Don't push anything, don't under do anything, and let the cards fall where they will.

With this frame of mind, what happens is you take the emotional highs and lows of the match out of the equation. In turn, it removes stress and anxiety and allows you to shoot at your best. Pushing yourself in a match is the last thing you really want to do. You are essentially going out of the realm of your game, and mistakes will happen. Push yourself in practice, not in a match.

You must think once you have shot the stage, you cannot take it back, so no sense dwelling on it, so in simplist terms, "Just shoot your game", and let the chips fall where they will....

That relieves stress just typing this. lol

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#6 gohuskers

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:18 AM

I agree with Sean - it's not a matter or caring or not, it's just a matter of concentrating your focus in the right way.
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#7 AlamoShooter

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:00 AM

I think, The Best at any sporting event does not always win. Its the person that delivers the best performance, at that event.

Games with balls, games with wheels, and the Biggest guy does not win the fight. The best equipment and the best skill will not always win if they can not perform at that moment.

That is what makes our game worth coming back to. "I know that I can do better"

I try-ed for a year in Sporting Clays to pretend that i did not care. It did not work out so good, we all lie to ourselves and most of the time we believe the lies.

I have not shot with you , But I can tell that a C card is not your skill level.
The Thing not to care about is what the other shooters are doing on a stage, shoot your own game like your are the only one that can shoot a score for your score card.
I don't think we can perform our best and program our brain to " win this set" =that is way too much to ask our tiny brains to filter.
But if we ask our selfs something simple like "See the sights" , or "shoot with control" something simple that does not include a negative.
Negative as in "don't hit the no shoot" or "don't go slow"

The Lie I don't care will not work, and if it did work as soon as things gets tough your Brain will say "Go to the Bar have a beer and pizza"


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#8 bofe954

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:22 AM

I think this is just a rephrase of Sean and Alamo, but maybe a different view of the same thing.

I just figure when I go to a match my skill level is what it is at that point. The only way I can improve is through practice. I can't go back in time and practice more so I am stuck where I am at that moment.

So all I can do is shoot. I will place somewhere depending on who else shows up. Say I am a B and another B is on my squad, and he's a little better than me. What can I do about it? Nothing. All I can do is shoot how I shoot, maybe his gun will malf or something, or maybe I'll lose, but I can't just get better while I am there.

It isn't about caring or not caring, I care. I want to win. My skill level just isn't there and by shooting above my level, I'll just score worse.

Someone could tell me a GM time and score for a stage. For all I care, don't care, want, don't want, try or don't try, I can't get that score on that stage. I know, I can just barely even dryfire a 95% El pres. If I want to, I need to practice more. So all I can do is shoot how I shoot, and practice for next time.

#9 shred

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:49 AM

"Not-caring is the same thing as caring" (paraphrasing) Brian Enos, long ago.

Pop over to the search engine, search for "caring" author "benos" and read the threads. I can't find the exact quote, but the concepts are discussed well.

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#10 benos

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 04:15 PM

If 100% of your thoughts and attention are focused on what you will do or are doing, you won't have any mental energy left to waste on caring or not caring.
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#11 kevinj308

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 06:31 PM

I struggle with this as well, I think everybody does at some point. I think it has alot to do with ego as well, speaking for myself anyway. Check out this thread http://www.brianenos...howtopic=91236. One of my all time favorites.
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#12 SteelDown

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:00 PM

In reading the threads and links the common factor in those times were you went to have fun. You were talking and joking around and let the autopilot you spent time conditioning in practice do its thing. I had a simular situation when I thought I could play golf.

On one memoriable day my drive actually made it as far as the ladies tee. :blush: When I was ready to drive on the next tee my buddy told a joke that made me laugh. I was still laughing when I hit the straightest, longest drive of the day. I realized the laugh made me relax and the autopilot did everything right without my help.

I try to incorporate this when I shoot by thinking of a funny story or joke when I hear "Standby". It seems starting with a chuckle keeps me relaxed and more in the zone. I realize I am "tricking" my mind into letting my brain do the work which is the secret.
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#13 wurm

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:28 PM

I find having a pre-shot routine helps to get rid of stress and lets me get that 100% focus Brian mentioned. Before you are up, go over your plan for the stage again. When you step up to the start position, really concentrate on what you are doing. Make sure you are lined up exactly how you want. When the RO says Stand By, burn a hole in the target with your eyes exactly where you want the shot to go. Whatever you come up with, give it your undivided attention.

I've read a few golf books in my day and most of them mention the pre-shot routine and how important it is. Some guys like Ben Hogan (from what I remember reading) would stand behind the ball and visualize exactly how the shot was going to go. Then he would take a couple of practice swings to get his rhythm grooved. Watch Tiger or any other pro golfer and they probably do something similar, just like a shooter might take a sight picture at load and make ready and check their stance, target alignment, etc.

#14 pjb45

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 11:44 AM

The caring and not caring wording is throwing a monkey wrench into the mix.

When you shoot a stage, you can do it via the concious or subconcious mind. When you concious mind is directing your efforts, there is greater opportunity for errors.

Your training program uses your concious mind to program your subconcious. I suspect when you use the terms not caring, you are letting your subconcious mind direct your actions and taking your concious mind out of the picture, hence the improvement.

I probably have done a very inadequate job of explaining what Mike Seeklander once told me. Freeing your concious mind allows your subconcious to program your actions free of thoughts that interfere with the proper execution of technique.

#15 Sean Gaines

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 12:21 PM

The caring and not caring wording is throwing a monkey wrench into the mix.

When you shoot a stage, you can do it via the concious or subconcious mind. When you concious mind is directing your efforts, there is greater opportunity for errors.

Your training program uses your concious mind to program your subconcious. I suspect when you use the terms not caring, you are letting your subconcious mind direct your actions and taking your concious mind out of the picture, hence the improvement.

I probably have done a very inadequate job of explaining what Mike Seeklander once told me. Freeing your concious mind allows your subconcious to program your actions free of thoughts that interfere with the proper execution of technique.


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#16 twodownzero

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 12:23 PM

If 100% of your thoughts and attention are focused on what you will do or are doing, you won't have any mental energy left to waste on caring or not caring.
be


I'm still working on achieving that. Your book is helping, a lot!
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#17 G-ManBart

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 10:48 PM

There's shooting, and there's everything else that happens at a match. When it's time to shoot, shoot in the moment...don't "try" to do anything, whether it's speed up, slow down, care, not care, whatever.

A baseball analogy comes to mind. Ever see those amazing diving catches outfielders make sometimes? They're in the moment, with pure focus on what's happening. They are NOT thinking...just doing. Watch those same guys when the ball is going to be near the wall/warning track, and that's when they sometimes "just miss"...because the conscious mind pops in and says "hey, you're going to hit the wall, and it's going to hurt".

Here's an example of being in the moment...look at the focus, nothing in the world exists to him, but the ball, and catching it...pure focus, no thoughts.

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#18 alpha-charlie

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:38 AM

A personal example: I recently shot a classifier match with the intentions of breaking into A class. In summary, I failed miserably. I couldn't draw, my grip sucked, I went back to double tapping instead of shooting in cadence, I moved slower than molasses when turning. Basically, I was in slow motion mentally and physically. I was so preoccupied with HAVING to good that my mind got in the way of what I know I can simply do. Counter point: A couple months back I shot at a new club for the first time. In a larger bay there were 2 separate stages setup. One was an obvious classifier and the other was what appeared to be a shorter field course. I didn't pay attention to the first part of the stage introduction and only caught the briefing. My turn came up, good time and great hits. I felt really good while shooting, smooth, precise and really didn't get myself all hyped up while shooting. I remember getting done and feeling really calm. I looked towards the classifier and BOOM!!!! Instant anxiety attack. I moved over to shoot the classifier and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Turns out they were both classifiers. The first one I shot a 76%, my highest classifier to date. I think we all know why I shot the first one so good. We're our own worst enemy.
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#19 Bongo Boy

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:48 AM

I work in a company culture that chooses to use 'outcomes', or what I call 'end state metrics' almost exclusively. We use no 'in process' metrics that I'm aware of. This leads folks, IMO, to focus on the end game to the exclusion of improving the steps taken to get there. This behavior translates to shooting, in my mind at least. Many of us, from time to time, go to the range thinking "I want to shoot better", or "I want to shoot tighter groups" or, far worse even, "I want to shoot as well as that guy...".

It's a focus on some desirable, ego-satisfying outcome. I find that such a focus is almost always detrimental. Whether that outcome is 'good' or 'bad, either way, ego gets involved and is either puffed up or deflated. In each case, at least for me, performance immediately drops. It isn't a reward that causes us to recall what we did to get the 'good' result, and it isn't a punishment that causes us to correct what we did to get the 'poor' performance. Likely, we don't even know what we did because we were focused on the outcome.

Often, my very best shooting results come when I can't see those results; when the lighting, target and background all conspire to completely obscure my hits and all I see is black paper. When this no longer matters will be when only the needed parts of my brain are involved in shooting, I guess.
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#20 kevinj308

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 06:39 PM

I work in a company culture that chooses to use 'outcomes', or what I call 'end state metrics' almost exclusively. We use no 'in process' metrics that I'm aware of. This leads folks, IMO, to focus on the end game to the exclusion of improving the steps taken to get there. This behavior translates to shooting, in my mind at least. Many of us, from time to time, go to the range thinking "I want to shoot better", or "I want to shoot tighter groups" or, far worse even, "I want to shoot as well as that guy...".

It's a focus on some desirable, ego-satisfying outcome. I find that such a focus is almost always detrimental. Whether that outcome is 'good' or 'bad, either way, ego gets involved and is either puffed up or deflated. In each case, at least for me, performance immediately drops. It isn't a reward that causes us to recall what we did to get the 'good' result, and it isn't a punishment that causes us to correct what we did to get the 'poor' performance. Likely, we don't even know what we did because we were focused on the outcome.

Often, my very best shooting results come when I can't see those results; when the lighting, target and background all conspire to completely obscure my hits and all I see is black paper. When this no longer matters will be when only the needed parts of my brain are involved in shooting, I guess.

Well said.
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#21 Adrian_Sorah

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:30 PM

Care about your shooting, not your stage performance if that makes sense.
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#22 Sean Gaines

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:08 AM

great posts. I like the ken griffey catching the ball analogy. Nothing on his mind except catching the ball.

our mind is what leads us to success and also leads us to our demise.

When you think about speeding up your draw, you fail. When you say to yourself I need to shoot this classifier good you fail.

When you just shoot your game, and nothing else gets in the way of that ie the little voice in the back of your head. You seem to be more succesful.

So how do you go about this?
The way I do it, and if someone else does it differntly, please add. When I come up to a stage I program the stage in my mind consciencely. I shoot it in my mind over and over. I try to find all the minute details of what I need to do on that stage, that will make it a successful run in my mind. I do it over and over. When I get to the line and the ro says "load and make ready" The only thing in my mind right now is load my gun and relax and wait for the first sound of the buzzer. Buzzer goes off and I am just doing, not thinking. The preperation before the stage is key! if you walk up to the line and you have all these thoughts running through your mind, how is you subconscience mind supposed to work, when the conscience mind is working also? Its one or the other, not both. If you are switching back and fourth, you are losing time! Thats like trying 2 or 3 things at one time. consciencely you can only do one thing at a time, subconsciencly there can be many things going on. Maybe this is what Brian Enos always talks about, seeing everything. Maybe in other words its called "subconscience awareness". Maybe trying to build this awareness up is the key to everything??????

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#23 Bill Nesbitt

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:55 AM

My 9 year old grand daughter just started playing basketball. At her second game she made her first basket. The ball was passed to her and she shot and made the basket. Talking to her afterward, she said; "I didn't think, I just shot". :cheers:
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#24 benos

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 08:08 PM

Maybe this is what Brian Enos always talks about, seeing everything. ... Maybe trying to build this awareness up is the key to everything??????

I can still remember the day I realized that's what it all came down to, end the end.
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#25 Mike Morcillo

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 02:57 PM

This past Sunday I shot a local, low-dollar 3-gun match.....nothing special. On the drive there I told myself this is just a practice session, no goals other than to get some range time. Well, turned in one of my best performances. In fact, some stages turned out to be on autopilot....didn't have to think about what I had to do. Took the time to get the points. Didn't try to win a stage, but did a top 3 overall.

Now, to remember the feeling an revisit it at the next match. It felt good.

Edited by Mike Morcillo, 18 January 2011 - 02:59 PM.





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