[John Thompson]

I went on a relative low carb diet recently but stayed on a my regular workout schedule as I was trying to score 100% on a fitness test.
Well when you:

1. Low carb+
2. High intensity workouts+
3. Pre-existing scar tissue in the hamstring
4. = torn hamstring

You have to have carbs for proper muscle contractions and I wasn't geting enough and add that to the fact my right hamstring muscle fibers were already prone to misfiring due to the scar tissue and you get me out of the game form 6 weeks to 6 months. My left hamstring is ready to go too an I had no idea.

Hard running on my leg workout day was a big no-no too.

low carb is fine but if you work out like an athlete then you need the carbs.

[Jeeper]

That sucks man. Low carb is something that must be done carefully. I have been doing it for over a year and I lift 5 days a week and run at least twice. I have done some pretty insane workouts while on it and havent had any major problems. I feel for ya. Tearing a hamstring has to suck!

[SherlockWV]

Thanks John - I never gave it any thought before I read your post because I got off of the "low carb" diet because of diabetes. But...I now recall 2 bad hamstring injuries when I was on it. I do at least 30 minutes of "floor work" which includes kicking. I stretch out for at least 15 minutes before my workouts. But...I did get the hamstring thing while on the low carb diet. I also use a bow flex for strength training and a treadmill. Running is out for me at my age plus not having a PCL ligiment in my left knee and the miniscus cartilege damaged in both knees. Point being that since I have stopped the "low carb" diet, I have not had a single injury. And at least 3 times a week, my work outs are really intense but I work out every day.
The more I read about the "low carb" thing the more I am convinced that it is a very individual thing. I will say that I have more trouble keeping my weight down now that I am off of the "low carb" diet, plus my Cholesterol is worse. The "low carb" diet did help me but because of the amount of protein and diabetes, I got permanent kidney damage. Thanks again. Good & Safe Shooting - JC

[Nik Habicht]

John,
Since I'm considering doing the low carb thing again --- how low carb did you go?
The last time I started it, I adapted the diet to make most of the protein lean (i.e. I was eating lots of Chicken and lean pork) and I never stopped eating carbs. My carbs during induction were limited to All the salad I could eat at lunch with either a can of Tuna or an equivalent amount of chicken or pork, and several servings of fresh steamed vegetables for dinner with more chicken breast. No bread, pastries, cake, potatoes, rice, pasta. 2 teaspoons of sugar daily for my two mugs of coffee. (I tried eliminating sugar alltogether, but found I couldn't tolerate the coffee without it...)

After the first two weeks I added the occasional (maybe twice a week) serving of potatoes or pasta. I dumped six inches off my waist over six months --- along with about 45 lbs. although I was working out at the time and building muscles...

The older I get, the more I want to avoid injury...

[Scooter]

My boss is pretty up to date about training and diet stuff. He's being trained by the leading sports medicine doctor in the world, he was Lance Armstrong's team doctor when he was riding for Motorola. What he told me about the low carb diet is, your body contains about 2 lbs of carbs. Each pound of carb contains 3 lbs of water. So the typical person has 8 lbs between carbs and water. Those 8 lbs burn off really fast especially during the first 2 weeks of the diet because your body uses carbs to do little stuff like getting up out of a chair and walking around. But to loose weight after that gets difficult.

It much better to eat proper meal and EXERCISE. You don't need to kill yourself exercising either. Going hard will force your body to use glucose. Just take it easy but go longer, that will burn more fat than going hard.

[SherlockWV]

Scooter - 10/4 on the Glucose. Being diabetic I have to keep a bottle of Glucose around my work out area as I go into Hypoglycemia pretty easy. Not too bad if I Carb up a little about 45 minutes before workouts but on the whole I have to watch out. Had to take Glucose after the 3rd stage Sunday. Just the energy burned internally lowered my sugar. Thanks - Good Shooting -JC

[old shooter]

I have been a fan of Atkins for a long time for rapid weight loss, but reciently started adding whole grain products to my diet. The SugarBuster Diet, and the South Beach Diet make a good case for good blood chemestry using their diets. Basically, no white flour, sugar, pasta, but whole grain substitues are ok (basically) I would recommend taking a look if Atkins has hit the boring stage for you.

Mike

[SherlockWV]

Mike, where do you get info on the diets you referenced. I do eat a lot of pasta but it is always whole wheat. This is based upon a dietitian who worked with me to create a diabetic diet. However I have found that (she) was really not up to date on things. So I would appriciate hearing more about the referenced diets. Good & Safe Shooting - JC

(I really have to change my signiture as this new medication they have me on is making me feel lethargic)

[Jeeper]

Sherlok,

Whole wheat pasta is usually just as processed as white pasta is. You need to get pasta that isnt processed as much. i cant think of the name right now. THe best Glycemic book I read was the one by Dr. Weil about healthy eating(forgot the title). his stuff is very informative.

[Ray S.]

In 1969 I went on the same low-carb diet. It was "Dr. Erwin Stillwell's Quick Weight Loss Diet". In 8 months I lost 109 pounds. I started it off with two weeks of only vitamin pills and water. Then went to: two days-fasting,,one day 3000 calories of steak. Did this for the next 7 months.

I have no doubt that it contributed to my present heart problems IHSS+mitral valve regurgitation. I was sick off and on for over a year after going off the diet. My doc says he figures since I was 15 I've lost 4200 pounds. )

I started the Atkins diet on September 1, ended December 24th. Lost 55 lbs.
I've gained two pounds. I'm starting again today, will get off the first of June. I'm hoping that limiting myself to three months on, two months maintenance, I'll avoid any large problems. Only problem I had this time was headaches about the end of the second week. Only lasted a couple of days, though.

Thanks for the input on the training/low carb problems, you may have saved me from a mistake.

[SherlockWV]

Thanks Jeeper - I will do a search on Amazon or other book place for Dr. Weil. I am sure that I will find the book you mentioned. There was a commercial on TV from a Drug Co. that offered a book (free) about carbs/protein/weight loss. I called and am expecting the book. The only catch was that I had to agree to accept "offers" from them.

I keep my diebetes pretty much under control but really have problem with hypoglycema. At a match this past Sunday I had to take Glucose tablets after the 2nd stage.

Diabetes or not, I am still a believer in eating right and finding the excercise program (aerobic) that works for each individual. Diet + Exercise = Fitness + Healthy Immune System.

Thanks again. Good & Safe Shooting - JC

[old shooter]

The most recent information that I am using is from the South Beach Diet book. It is not a "fad" diet. 2 yrs ago, I lost weight with Atkins, and maintained with Sugarbusters. I think all of the low carb diets work by limiting the insulin spike you get from eating sugars/carbs.

The most "basic" reason that the diets work is.
slower metabolism of whole grains/easy metabolism of processed grains=higher insulin production with faster absorbtion. Smaller particles or liquid are absorbed faster.

Eating a good fat or protien with carbs slows down the metabolism of the carbs.

Eating bad (processed) carbs caused an insulin spike which causes hunger when it returns to normal.

There seems to be a relationship between fiber and cholestrol in that more fiber causes less cholestrol in the blood.

BTW Dr Agatston (South Beach) is not a diet doctor, he is a cardiologist.

My person experience may not = yours, but I found it easier to lose a bunch of weight on Atkins, and easier to maintain on S.B. You can lose weight, but at a more "normal" rate.

I am not an expert, and my facts/reasoning are from a lay perspective from the material that I have read. No warantee's expressed or implied......

Mike

[EricW]

I tried the low-carb trip and came to the same conclusion my friend did, who was also on it: Unhealthy nonsense.

A trainer at my old gym actually used himself as a guinea pig and did some real testing. He lost as much muscle weight as he did fat weight. Not good. Which would explain why Atkins makes you more injury prone.

[SiG Lady]

The good doctor has a Website... Dr. Weil's Place

[JasonK]

I'm going to abstain from any Atkins comments and ask what is the strength ratio between your hamstrings and quads? How much weight can you do on a good morning compared to a back squat? If your hamstrings aren't in the area of 60% of the strength of your quads you are more injury prone. Several sports coaches/strength trainers have noticed that players with weak hams are the ones most usually sidelined with a hamstring or groin injury.

Just something else to consider.

[mas]

Just another vote for the South Beach Diet. What's great about it is that you only go off carbs for about two weeks. Then you slowly reintroduce the "good" carbs back into your diet. I've lost 15 pounds in about a month and my blood chemistry has significantly improved.

[SherlockWV]

Old Shooter - Thanks for the info re. the SB diet. & thanks to Sig Lady for the web site. One of the things I addressed early in this thread is the word "diet" because it is misused. Any "diet" is simply ones eating plan. Now...there are "fad diets" to loose weight quickly, but the primary definitinition of any diet is one's eating plan. So...we have to consider behavioural modification as the primary "change" along with the new eating plan. I know that Bill N. has been very successful with the Atkins. Old Shooter, the idea of a low carb diet is to get the body to burn "Ketones" instead of "Carbs". By burning Ketones more stored carbs are removed from the body. This is where the "extra water consumtion" comes in. Without the extra water one risks going into "ketosisacidosis" that that is very dangerous and harmful to the kidneys. Now my kidney damage was due to my diabetes plus the protein that I was consuming rather than not enough water. Exercise is paramount to good health with Atkins.
Carbs not burned are stored as (Triglicrides) fat on our bodies. They do not increase LDL or raise HDL. Food consumtion only accounts for 20% of our total cholesterol. Adkins somehow raised my HDL whereas before, I only knew that "strength training" would raise HDL.
I need to check out the references that you folks have provided. Personally I have a severe obsession with eating at night. May be compusive but I am told that my diabetes contributes to that. But, I have talked to a lot of people who do not have diabetes and they too have night cravings. Really don't know the cause but I do know that for me, I really have to "gut it out" at night and I know that when I was on the Atkin's, I had hamstring injuries. But again that may be and individual thing. Thanks again to everyone. Good & Safe Shooting - JC

[John Thompson]

Nik,
My carbs were reduced to about 20% of my overall calorie intake. I've gone back to a 50-60% ratio and my doctor, who is the surgeon for some area college sports teams, said my injury is common with his sprinters and he has seen more a few cases of the injury with athletes on low carb.

Jason,
My hams are quite strong. A muscle imbalance is definately not the issue and a second opinion about the cause of my tear has confirmed it.

A lot of "carbophoebs" have a problem with pasta even though it is only a moderate glycemic index food which is why I don't understand the problem. Just don't eat a huge bowl of it every day.

Cutting some carbs, like the empty junk carbs, is still the way to go to loose weight but only within reason and within the demands we are making on our bodies.

[driver8M3]

SherlockWV, on Mar 2 2004, 01:22 PM, said:

Old Shooter, the idea of a low carb diet is to get the body to burn "Ketones" instead of "Carbs". By burning Ketones more stored carbs are removed from the body. This is where the "extra water consumtion" comes in. Without the extra water one risks going into "ketosisacidosis" that that is very dangerous and harmful to the kidneys.

ketones are formed from the breakdown of (among other things) stored body fat.

glucose is normally the primary source of energy. if you deplete the stored glucose (glucose in muscles, glycogen in the liver) from your body, the next source of fuel that the body will use is muscle. after some loss of muscle, the body resorts to using stored body fat for energy. this is where the ketones appear...stored body fat is broken down to ketones which are used as an energy source. excess ketones will be eliminated in the urine.

ketoacidosis is a problem (primarily) of diabetics and involves more than just elevated ketone levels, mainly very highly elevated glucose levels and an acidic blood pH.

[John Thompson]

When the body is forced to burn protein as an energy source "urea" is a bi-porduct witch shows itself in urine. The reason why one is supposed to urinate on urea sticks during the induction phase of Adkins is too make sure the urea is present. Normaly a sign of urea on a stick test would tell someone with kidney probems to go to the hospital. Adkins thinks(thought) this is healthy.

[driver8M3]

the goal of atkins is not to burn protein, but to burn fat. after depleting your stored glucose, the body will start to break down muscle for energy. this does not last long, and i dont know the science behind why eventually you stop burning muscle and start burning fat instead, but for some reason it does happen. what you are measuring with the urine dipsticks is ketones in the urine, which is an indication that fat is being broken down to be used as an energy source...

[John Thompson]

You never stop burning protein when in calorie debt. Carbs burn first, protein burns second, fast burns last. That is why athletes trying to loose weight loose it well before they have to compete so that they can increase their calorie consumption prior to the competition which allows them to regain strength and endurance w/o adding too much of the lost weight back on.

The Atkins diet is NOT FOR ATHLETES or anyone who works out hard. Not only can muscles only burn carbs the same goes for the brain. Fat is not "burned" it is converted to carbohydrates just like protein when there are no carbs available. The induction phase of the Atkins diet says it all.

[driver8M3]

if fat "burns last" as you say, one could never lose that spare tire around ones midsection without 1st using all available muscle as an energy sourse.

also, fat is not exclusively turned into carbohydrates when carb intake is restricted. ketones are formed from the breakdown of fat, and are used as a source of energy throughout the body. the brain and muscles do not depend exclusively on glucose, and can and will adapt to use ketones as an energy source.

i have eaten a low carb diet for some time while regularly lifting weights. i lost a significant amount of weight/fat without having my muscles wither away...my gut got a lot smaller, but my arms/chest/etc did not shrink, and my strength has increased.

[John Thompson]

driver8M3, on Apr 7 2004, 04:43 PM, said:

Quote

if fat "burns last" as you say, one could never lose that spare tire around ones midsection without 1st using all available muscle as an energy sourse. 

That is a erroneous conclusion. Muscle protein will burn initially but then one goes to fat. If you want to get specific one burns blood glucose then muscle glycogen then fat. When a marathoner "hits the wall" he has literally burned all glycogen and is then running on fat only. Not a pleasant experience. That is the point of the induction phase of Atkins: to purge all blood glucose in order to get the fat to be used as an energy source.

Quote

also, fat is not exclusively turned into carbohydrates when carb intake is restricted. ketones are formed from the breakdown of fat, and are used as a source of energy throughout the body. the brain and muscles do not depend exclusively on glucose, and can and will adapt to use ketones as an energy source.

Ketones is Atkins babble and I honestly know nothing about it. As far the brain only able to burn carbs I don't know what to tell you. That is physiology 101. If your right show me where it's not true. I just renewed my certification as a sports trainer and what your saying is the first I ever heard of it including when I got my degree.

Quote

i have eaten a low carb diet for some time while regularly lifting weights.  i lost a significant amount of weight/fat without having my muscles wither away...my gut got a lot smaller, but my arms/chest/etc did not shrink, and my strength has increased.

Good for you but your an exception. I could go on for paragraphs about performance eating and the effect of diet, but I don't see the point in it.

[driver8M3]

Quote

That is a erroneous conclusion.  Muscle protein will burn initially but then one goes to fat.

thats EXACTLY what i said a couple of posts back, so we can agree on that.

Quote

If you want to get specific one burns blood glucose then muscle glycogen then fat.

actually, muscles primarily use fatty acids at rest for energy. when exercise begins, muscle glycogen becomes the primary source of energy in muscles. as muscle glycogen is depleted, muscles then begin to use blood glucose for energy.

Quote

Ketones is Atkins babble

i assure you atkins did not invent ketones, and it is not babble.

Quote

As far the brain only able to burn carbs I don't know what to tell you. That is physiology 101. If your right show me where it's not true. I just renewed my certification as a sports trainer and what your saying is the first I ever heard of it including when I got my degree.

under NORMAL conditions (normal carb intake), that is true. once the body stores of glucose are depleted and fat is being broken down to be used as an energy source, ketones can be used by the brain as a source of energy. perhaps this is physiology 201. do a web search using brain/ketones/energy and you will see that is correct.

earlier, you said:

Quote

The Atkins diet is NOT FOR ATHLETES

i agree. a serious athlete that is not fat has no use for the atkins diet. the atkins diet is meant to loose fat. if your body fat % is reasonable, i dont see why you would want to be on atkins.