36 replies to this topic

[sigsauerfan]

howdy all.


i' m still learning my new XL 650 (as some of you guys already knows) , and helped by your precious advice and heads up, my press action is now close to perfect . it improved realy much, but i still have a glitch with it ....

the sole real bugger left is my OAL, wich is still all over the place at the moment, variation of as much as .12 mill is still an issue, and i dont mix headstamps.

i set everything for an AOL of 1.100 and make a dummy corresponding to what i want,tighten the lockring on the seater die and start from there......, and find myself with variable lenghts from 1.094 to 1.112. most of the rounds loaded are around 1.105, 1.106,but there's a few who are realy at both end of the spectrum , i think crimping has something to see with this, or maybe the occasional case missing in one of the station (caused by the case tube feeding gremlin).


i use dillon(3 set including the seating die) dies, except the crimper which is a LEE CARBIDE CRIMPER.

my toughts on the random OAL are:

1-crimping process(unlikely,otherwise all rounds would show the same measurement)

2- the occasional case missing on one of the stations

3-variations of bullet lenghts(frontier FMJ RN) measurement show a very thin variation wich can not explain the dancing OAL

4- maybe i should pop a beer and chill out


any comments or opinions are more than welcome,to date everyone here has been of great help ....

[Pat Miles]

Okay, the shell plate is snugged down? Damn near no rocking from one side to another? If there is, loosen the locking set screw in the left side of the ram and snug down the shell plate hold down bolt until the shell plate will no longer turn by hand. Now loosen the shell plate bolt until the shell plate will just rotate. Tighten the locking screw and check the shell plate for rotation. If the shell plate is now too tight to move unlock the set screw and loosen the SP bolt about 1/16 of a full turn.Tighten the lock screw and see if the SP will turn. A tiny bit of drag is okay. You should end up with the SP not rocking.
Check that all die locking rings are tight. Start running brass into the SP as you normally would... resizer/decapping, priming, etc.. When you lower the first round from the bullet seater pull that round out and measure the OAL. Put it back in and run it through the crimping die and then measure it again. Are the before and after measurements the same? They may end up a couple thou shorter. Run a few more rounds through and measure the OAL. What do you get as far as variance?
CYa,
Pat

Edited by whatmeworry, 06 August 2010 - 03:10 PM.

[sigsauerfan]

Okay, the shell plate is snugged down? Damn near no rocking from one side to another? If there is, loosen the locking set screw in the left side of the ram and snug down the shell plate hold down bolt until the shell plate will no longer turn by hand. Now loosen the shell plate bolt until the shell plate will just rotate. Tighten the locking screw and check the shell plate for rotation. If the shell plate is now too tight to move unlock the set screw and loosen the SP bolt about 1/16 of a full turn.Tighten the lock screw and see if the SP will turn. A tiny bit of drag is okay. You should end up with the SP not rocking.
Check that all die locking rings are tight. Start running brass into the SP as you normally would... resizer/decapping, priming, etc.. When you lower the first round from the bullet seater pull that round out and measure the OAL. Put it back in and run it through the crimping die and then measure it again. Are the before and after measurements the same? They may end up a couple thou shorter. Run a few more rounds through and measure the OAL. What do you get as far as variance?
CYa,
pAT

thanks a lot ''whatmeworry'' i'll try that later in the day to see if there's something there, i did not played with this part of the press yet.

[Sarge]

Not sure if Frontier bullets are like some other plated bullets that were found to have fluctuations in shape, profile, etc. That might be part of the problem. If you can get your hands on a few good jacketed bullets that would be a good way to check. But I would start with the shellplate as suggested. Then make sure the shellplate is always full when setting oal. The plate will flex just a little bit when any stations are empty. Also be aware that mixed brass will cause some small deviation in oal. You're fluctuations are pretty small but I like to get things as close to perfect myself so I know how you feel.

[gfmun]

I had the same problem when I started with the XL650 and on mine it was the shellplate not snugged down properly. I test it with my thumb every once in awhile and if I feel movement then I adjust it because it will come loose.

This also caused a high primer problem.


thanks,
George

[benos]

Do the final tightening of all die lock rings with a fully loaded Shellplate and the handle all the way down.
be

[Merlin Orr]

Choose option number 4 and don't look back.

[sigsauerfan]

mmhéhé, me again back from some tweaking to my press, seeking more consistency in the COAL department wich was variable at best ....

and all you guys nailed all the details requiring attention for more precision from the seating die as well as the whole action/precision of all the stations .

first,as BENO said, all the dies(specialy the seating die) need to be worked/final tightening with all the stations full,complete rounds in station 4#-5#.

it look like when one of the station 1#-2#-4#-5# is empty, the shell plate seems unbalanced,maybe leaning a lill tenth, messing with the COAL by couple tenths.

secondly, as WHATMEWORRY and MLMILL1 pointed , i noticed the shell plate lock-nut need a special attention as it come loose quite fast, wich mess the action and specialy seating primers at station 2# , wich can show a low seating, the primer not pushed enough in the flash hole,just on the edge.

retightening the lock-nut ruled out the primer seating gremlin , and i also made a thin adjustment to the primer seating pin, now it's perfect.



soooo, i did a run of 200 rounds adjusted to 1.100 COAL and ended up with 175 rounds right on spot at 1.100 exactly ,with couple rounds from 1.099 to 1.103, and as KEVIN pointed, now i know this is caused by thin variation due to the frontier bullits not showing the exact same tip. as they are round nose,their edge are not perfectly flat,showing irregular edges...turning the round on his seat in my digi caliper pointing out they're guilty lolol...

also,the occasional case missing in one station can be responsible for a little increase in COAL.

i want to thank all of you guys, you've been of precious help,all the Q's i've got from everyone here helped me to set the machine right on spot, you're all like a technical support department,i dont think dillon could have done better at troubleshooting with me on the phone than what you all did in this thread,it's realy appreciated and i think this forum will see me browsing trough the reloadingipsick threads all the time.

...and as merlinorr suggested, i popped a beer now that i'm quite happy with how my press work. lolol.

Edited by sigsauerfan, 07 August 2010 - 09:31 PM.

[benos]

That was nice to read - thanks!

be

[Sarge]

We have all learned so much from Brians forums, so it is only fair to give back whenever possible. Good luck and happy loading!

[CHA-LEE]

The tool head can move around when you use the standard "Pins" to lock it into place. UniqueTek makes a tool head clamp kit which enables you to screw the tool head to the frame of the press. This greatly decreased the OAL inconsistencies that I had on my press. The other thing that it does is keep the OAL and crimp the same when all of the shell plate stations are not full. Without this tool head clamp kit the tool head can rock in the press mount when you don't have all of the shell plate positions full making some inconsistent results.

UniqueTek makes some good stuff for the Dillon Presses. I really like the tool head clamp kit, micrometer powder bar, precision powder baffle, and the Redding competition bullet seating die. All of these parts have made my 650 a lot easier to work with and more consistent.

[The Happy Gila]

Now that you've got your press all set up.......... I'd throw away the Dillon bullet seating die and get a Redding Competition seating die. Using the Redding seating die gives you MUCH more accuracy (and ease) when you need to change your OAL .
Good luck!
THG

[Pat Miles]

Now that you've got your press all set up.......... I'd throw away the Dillon bullet seating die and get a Redding Competition seating die. Using the Redding seating die gives you MUCH more accuracy (and ease) when you need to change your OAL .
Good luck!
THG

+1!
Pat

[sigsauerfan]

Now that you've got your press all set up.......... I'd throw away the Dillon bullet seating die and get a Redding Competition seating die. Using the Redding seating die gives you MUCH more accuracy (and ease) when you need to change your OAL .
Good luck!
THG

good to know. i plan to get every bits for my press who could help in consistency,this redding die , i will get one!!

Edited by sigsauerfan, 13 August 2010 - 07:30 AM.

[sigsauerfan]

The tool head can move around when you use the standard "Pins" to lock it into place. UniqueTek makes a tool head clamp kit which enables you to screw the tool head to the frame of the press. This greatly decreased the OAL inconsistencies that I had on my press. The other thing that it does is keep the OAL and crimp the same when all of the shell plate stations are not full. Without this tool head clamp kit the tool head can rock in the press mount when you don't have all of the shell plate positions full making some inconsistent results.

UniqueTek makes some good stuff for the Dillon Presses. I really like the tool head clamp kit, micrometer powder bar, precision powder baffle, and the Redding competition bullet seating die. All of these parts have made my 650 a lot easier to work with and more consistent.

i did a quick fix to the toolhead moving up/down too much for my taste.i just shimmed it , helped a whole lot to get ridd of the inconsistency of station 2-4 suffered at the beggining....getting the same consistency all stations filled or not is also interesting, but i tought not filling all the shell plate(shell plate flex) slots was the MAIN reason for the irregular OAL.

Edited by sigsauerfan, 13 August 2010 - 07:29 AM.

[Torogi]

I got to bump this, SAME problem, did all what was told but still inconsistent OALs.

Background: 9mm for Major. U-die, Redding Competition Seater, Lee FCD. my desired OAL is 1.168. OAL im getting is 1.148 shortest and 1.194 longest. i think average im getting at 1.160.

Now i changed my set-up to Lee resize-decap, NEW unmolested Redding competition Seater (supposedly reserved for production set-up) and Lee FCD. Im currently at 1.165 set, but variances are from 1.155 to 1.170.

Tried
1. Cleaned shellplate, top and bottom and properly greased the nut.
2. SP is installed as instructed on post #2.

I have yet to try tightening lock rings with the SP fully loaded. #1 station has issues too, empty cases kissing the bottom of the die. i have to tilt case to align it to the die.

[benos]

I have yet to try tightening lock rings with the SP fully loaded. #1

Defintiely do that move.
be

[Flexmoney]

I have yet to try tightening lock rings with the SP fully loaded. #1

Defintiely do that move.
be

Yes... search for and read up on "squaring" your dies.

[Torogi]

Thanks BE and Flex, i need help on searching squaring dies, i did +squaring +die only one thread came out and its under rifle reloading.

[Torogi]

I have yet to try tightening lock rings with the SP fully loaded. #1

Defintiely do that move.
be

I did it this morning, i am getting 1.155, 1.145, 1.165, 1.173. This is identical cases (once-fired). that is from fully loaded stations, even at #3 with no die it is loaded. I have to rule out my seater, its a new Redding Competition die, previous was a new Redding CD and OAL was a little erratic still. All the dies are not touching the SP. I can't think of anything else. Oh, i may have to try swapping the toolhead.

[benos]

Torogi,

Wow, that's a wide variation. What brand of bullets?
be

[aztecdriver]

I'll just throw a small a little thing I noticed and an experience. I was loading 40 and 45 with a Lee FCD with Precision Black Bullets and ended up with bullets loose in the case mouth. It was almost as if the resizing portion of the FCD squeezed the bullet and the crimp it applied was useless as the case came back out of it. Sometimes it was bad enough that the bullet was sitting on top of the case mouth like I never seated it and as it fell down the discharge chute, the bullet would tumble out and dump the case, powder all over the place.

After enough of those, I switched to taper crimp dies and the problem disappeared. 9mm major I would assume you are using FMJ or similar and you shouldn't have as much of an issue, but plated bullets might. I'd pull a non-consistent bullet and throw a caliber on the below crimp and above crimp area and see if got squeezed. I have no where near the experience that some others here might - but that experience with the FCD was enough for me to convey the story. It might help.

[benos]

I'll just throw a small a little thing I noticed and an experience. I was loading 40 and 45 with a Lee FCD with Precision Black Bullets and ended up with bullets loose in the case mouth. It was almost as if the resizing portion of the FCD squeezed the bullet and the crimp it applied was useless as the case came back out of it.

That's why, in theory, I'm not a fan of the FCD die. Squeezing the case down after the bullet has been seated is not a good thing because the case will spring back a bit.
be

[Torogi]

Torogi,

Wow, that's a wide variation. What brand of bullets?
be

it is MG 124gr JHP.

i dont know how to multi qoute but next post after BE.

Yes, i did try to seat bullet, measure, and crimp with FCD and no change. im getting my preferred crimp at 0.375 consistent. OAL after seat and after crimp is consistent so i have to rule out the FCD.

i have been loading 40S&W, around 7k rounds with U-die, Redding competition, and FCD and i had very good experience. very consistent OAL, crimp, powder measure. No issues. i bought a convertion kit and quick change, different dies for 9mm major and it had been downhill since then. Maybe because im loading different caliber, from lead to jacketed transition, different powder i dont know. All i know is my dies are new. conversion kit is new. i cant think of anything im missing or may have overlooked.

Edited by Torogi, 16 September 2010 - 02:21 PM.

[benos]

From everything you've said, the only thing I can think of is maybe the bullet's ogive is very inconsistent. I just thought of a way to measure / compare that that I never thought of before. See if this works. Take the seating plug out of the Seat Die. Then place a bullet in the seating stem (like it would be if the bullet/seating stem were in the press) and measure the overall length, from the bottom of the bullet to the top of the seating stem. Try to keep the bullet as square as possible and measure as consistently as possible. Compare a handful of bullets and let us know what you find.
be