94 replies to this topic

[DonovanM]

I voted false, but I would have voted "not necessarily" were it available. Had no idea it would be so even, what a great poll idea!

Edited by DonovanM, 03 October 2011 - 08:55 PM.

[BoyGlock]

I voted False.
The key is "if you are shooting all As", not necessarily hitting all of them,
Im B class the last time I was classified 2 yrs ago, Sr. Standard
But I had more than a few matches in my locality where I had the best times in most stages and still had the best hits.
In these matches I checked my score sheets upon going home, as my usual habit, and found that I shot 95+% of the A's in a given match
And going thru the verifier, in majority of these stages I had the best times, in some I was 2nd best.
there are no M and GM here where I shoot so I usually win my div and category.
A lot of times I asked myself if I should go faster the next time around.
But I knew it were already my fastest so I could not go faster than my old self

Edited by BoyGlock, 04 October 2011 - 04:51 AM.

[lugnut]

So I guess my answer is.... I don't know what targets I'd drop points on... but unless I shoot like a snail... I won't get all As.

Your not calling shots at speed, so you shoot faster?

Maku mozo.

Well... of course I shoot/aim for all As regardless of speed... it's just that sometimes bad shots aren't called. I've seen shooters a LOT better than me have Mikes that they were surprised to see... but I guess what they do is irrelevant since I'm the only one that matters. I'd love to be better at calling shots... I just can't seem to find a way to get better at it... can't seem to just make it happen.

[ebg3]

I voted true. More than likely you are going to slow. It seems a lot of major matches are being won with only 75-80% A's, look at this year's Nationals.

[pjb45]

I do not know of anyone who does stage math better than TGO. Either on this forum or in person, I remember him talking about the trade off of speed and accuracy. My conclusion was if the extra time to get the A was going to cost him in speed, he would settle for the C.

I like the theory behind stage math - hit factor, etc.

Perhaps taking a look at the Limited Nationals top finishers (say the top 15, to keep the data junkies happy). Maybe developing an indicator time*points crosstabs with placement. See if there is a correlation between points and placement for the top 15 places.

[bigphiltheshootist]

If you shot all A's and didn't win then yes true.

[BoyGlock]

maybe a big factor here is our beliefs.
if we believe we should be slowing down, then we will.
if we believe otherwise, we will keep on shooting at our speeds and still could hit As, w/o even thinking of slowing down.

[Flexmoney]

I'd love to be better at calling shots... I just can't seem to find a way to get better at it... can't seem to just make it happen.

It sounds to me like you have a speed focus (be it fast OR slow)...much like this entire thread. And...much like any "better" shooter, when he/she had a mistake.

Shot calling ... try a visual focus. Let the speed mindset get replaced by a mindset of seeing more.

[AlamoShooter]

every match of any size that I go to , I get beat by shooters with misses.

[Flexmoney]

It's not a matter of slowing down or speeding up.

[Supermoto]

Have you ever finished a stage and said "I shot that to fast" and not actually meant "I shot that too inaccurately".

[Nik Habicht]

It's not a matter of slowing down or speeding up.

What if we ignored the timer and focused on quality instead?

Quality of stage planning, plan execution, and of shot placement?

Isn't IT about more than just shooting?

[BoyGlock]

this poll was started 9 yrs ago and the results are almost the same as it started.

strange?

could be that the level of skills also plays a big part in voting?
Flex emphasized above that in going for As, we should not focus on speed,
I agree, for how can we focus on As if we focus on speed at the same time? not possible
But this focus thing depends a lot on the skill of the shooter.
For lower level skills, focusing on As would not be as automatic and precise as higher skilled shooters,
Thus the speed will be very much affected, w/c means slowing down.
But for Ms and GMs, shooting As is as easy as eating Pies, thus the speed is not a factor

So the results are quite subjective.

my .02, ymmv

[lugnut]

I'd love to be better at calling shots... I just can't seem to find a way to get better at it... can't seem to just make it happen.

It sounds to me like you have a speed focus (be it fast OR slow)...much like this entire thread. And...much like any "better" shooter, when he/she had a mistake.

Shot calling ... try a visual focus. Let the speed mindset get replaced by a mindset of seeing more.

I think I just figured something out- with your help of course, while I was reading Seeklander's book. I honestly do like "shooting" fast... that is the draw to USPSA matches for me- no pun intended. Shooting slow for accuracy is something I can do, but prefer the fast pace of USPSA/IDPA....

At the buzzer... many of us do everything by the timer- draws, splits, transitions... which are all measured on SHOTS. However I need to adjust my mindset as you suggest. It needs to be time to first acceptable sight picture... transition between sight pics, etc. Maybe not introduce time as much, although this will be VERY challenging for me... which as as you say is- visual focus! The dilema I have in eliminating time... that is a REAL way of measuring progress... that and points.... ahh the journey continues.. but that is the fun part!

[Flexmoney]

The dilema I have in eliminating time... that is a REAL way of measuring progress... that and points.... ahh the journey continues.. but that is the fun part!

If it were just that easy.

Maybe consider is a measure of a LACK of progress.


Calling shots is a great path to be on.

If you focus just on speed...you will just get older and fatter and lose a step.


Besides...shooting a gun fast isn't really a major component of shooting a stage fast.

[old506]

This is the best post in the universe!

I try to read it at least once a week. I think it sums up our sport in a couple of paragraphs then gives the solution to the problem.

benos, on 23 August 2004 - 03:06 PM, said:


Because of the high-speed nature of IPSC shooting, if one comes to IPSC without a good background in the fundamentals of shooting, I've noticed a pattern during the learning curve.

Typically we start out blazing away, so we never really learn what it means or the importance of calling each shot precisely. Then after shooting for some time, maybe years, we start to realize that hitting the targets is more important than going fast, because "you can't miss fast enough to win." During this hosing phase, we ingrain bad visual habits because the targets do not challenge our weaknesses, and after some time we just kinda point shoot most everything. Then, as we start to open up to the fact that calling is important, we're so used to looking at the wrong things while "going fast," it feels like we must really slow down in order to see enough of the sights to call the shots. At this point it becomes a psychological battle, because there's no way we're going to shoot slower.
At this point hearing a good explanation and believing in it become a factor. Furthermore, you must prove it to yourself in practice before you'll ever trust enough to do it in a match.
Spread 6 or 8 targets around the range between 8 and 15 yards, and stick no-shoots, right next to the A-boxes, on a couple of them. Draw and shoot one shot on each left to right, right down your time, then do the same thing right to left, then repeat both strings for a total of four strings. Then figure your score using the time-plus method, adding .2 of a second for each point dropped. Do this forever or until you figure out what you must do and how you must see in order to get the best score.
be

[lugnut]

The dilema I have in eliminating time... that is a REAL way of measuring progress... that and points.... ahh the journey continues.. but that is the fun part!

If it were just that easy.

Maybe consider is a measure of a LACK of progress.


Calling shots is a great path to be on.

If you focus just on speed...you will just get older and fatter and lose a step.


Besides...shooting a gun fast isn't really a major component of shooting a stage fast.

This is the best post in the universe!

I try to read it at least once a week. I think it sums up our sport in a couple of paragraphs then gives the solution to the problem.

benos, on 23 August 2004 - 03:06 PM, said:


Because of the high-speed nature of IPSC shooting, if one comes to IPSC without a good background in the fundamentals of shooting, I've noticed a pattern during the learning curve.

Typically we start out blazing away, so we never really learn what it means or the importance of calling each shot precisely. Then after shooting for some time, maybe years, we start to realize that hitting the targets is more important than going fast, because "you can't miss fast enough to win." During this hosing phase, we ingrain bad visual habits because the targets do not challenge our weaknesses, and after some time we just kinda point shoot most everything. Then, as we start to open up to the fact that calling is important, we're so used to looking at the wrong things while "going fast," it feels like we must really slow down in order to see enough of the sights to call the shots. At this point it becomes a psychological battle, because there's no way we're going to shoot slower.
At this point hearing a good explanation and believing in it become a factor. Furthermore, you must prove it to yourself in practice before you'll ever trust enough to do it in a match.
Spread 6 or 8 targets around the range between 8 and 15 yards, and stick no-shoots, right next to the A-boxes, on a couple of them. Draw and shoot one shot on each left to right, right down your time, then do the same thing right to left, then repeat both strings for a total of four strings. Then figure your score using the time-plus method, adding .2 of a second for each point dropped. Do this forever or until you figure out what you must do and how you must see in order to get the best score.
be

Total awesomeness!!! I need to sticky both of these... and run that drill.

"Then, as we start to open up to the fact that calling is important, we're so used to looking at the wrong things while "going fast," it feels like we must really slow down in order to see enough of the sights to call the shots. At this point it becomes a psychological battle, because there's no way we're going to shoot slower. "


Damn! This is where I'm at down to a tee!

Edited by lugnut, 05 October 2011 - 09:52 AM.

[old506]

Isn't it great Lugnut? There really isn't anything left to say is there? The most pure, pointed post about practical shooting in the universe.

Look at what Ben Stoeger did. Prior to Nationals he basically said he was going to do just this, pickup the A's and don't worry about anything else. Flex then came out that if he would do just that, he would win. Great Call!

It all comes back to BE's post, it is brilliant. When I was going back and looking at old posts I about fell out of my chair when I read it.



[/quote]

Damn! This is where I'm at down to a tee!
[/quote]

[lugnut]

Isn't it great Lugnut? There really isn't anything left to say is there? The most pure, pointed post about practical shooting in the universe.

Look at what Ben Stoeger did. Prior to Nationals he basically said he was going to do just this, pickup the A's and don't worry about anything else. Flex then came out that if he would do just that, he would win. Great Call!

It all comes back to BE's post, it is brilliant. When I was going back and looking at old posts I about fell out of my chair when I read it.

Damn! This is where I'm at down to a tee!

Yeah! I plan on winning the psychological battle!!

[Nik Habicht]

I once asked a Master Class shooter what he thought the real difference was between a C-class shooter and and a Master. He answered: The quality of the mistakes gets better, the higher you progress. Higher quality mistakes are easier to fix, and have less impact on your score.....

Shooting Alphas requires the same thing from all of us -- sight alignment/aligning the sight picture with the A-zone of the target, and trigger control. That's probably not really any harder or easier in C-class than it is in Master Class -- though I have no personal experience....

Shooting Alphas efficiently -- that's gonna require some shot calling ability. But once you master that, you've taken a giant step toward higher quality mistakes during the shooting portion of the stage. You'll know at the moment the gun fires, where the round went....