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How fast can you push plated (Xtreme) bullets?


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#1 lucky strike

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 04:03 PM

I was given some Xtreme 158gr plated bullets and want to use them for .357 magnum. I'm just wondering if any of you out there are using Xtreme for .357 mag and if so how fast you've been able to get them before suffering plating separation. I know of the plated bullet makers Xtreme is supposedly using the thickest plating.

#2 joecichlid

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 09:00 AM

I would be careful shooting them out of a .357 because of the amount of crimp required. You need a given ammount to keep the bullets from setting back but with a slick copper plating you risk cutting through the plating. If you are going to be doing much shooting with a .357 I would go with true jacketed bullets. I have shot several tens of thousands of plated bullets out of autos and even with a tapered crimp I have seen a few get the plating cut through, on a roll crimp such as that needed in .357 you are pretty much going to have plating seperation. :(

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#3 Nealio

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 08:13 PM

I was given some Xtreme 158gr plated bullets and want to use them for .357 magnum. I'm just wondering if any of you out there are using Xtreme for .357 mag and if so how fast you've been able to get them before suffering plating separation. I know of the plated bullet makers Xtreme is supposedly using the thickest plating.


I push my 10mm 155gr Xtremes to 1400+, and my dad pushes his .357 loads to 1500+ in his .357Mag. Extremes are probably the best built plated bullet on the market. I have handfuls of 10mm bullets that I've recovered that look new except for the rifling. I've shot them through 6 sheets of 3/4" mdf and they had very minimal deformation.
Bottom line is they are hard, well built, and have a thick plating so push them hard as you want. ;)

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#4 freakshow10mm

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:52 AM

Yes, I agree. I switched my commercial ammunition from Berry's to Xtreme and have excellent results. I can run them just as fast as jacketed.

#5 joecichlid

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:20 PM

It sounds like I need to pick up some to try out of my Super. Now I just need to find a supplier that will sell me a few hundred to try out. :)

Joe W.

#6 SLM

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:47 PM

It looks like you could just order 500 from them direct. Montana Gold's appear to be cheaper though.
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#7 joecichlid

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 06:47 PM

Thanks for the info. For now, it looks like I will be sticking with the MG 121 IFPs. :)

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#8 freakshow10mm

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 09:46 AM

It sounds like I need to pick up some to try out of my Super. Now I just need to find a supplier that will sell me a few hundred to try out. :)

Joe W.

Only 9mm Xtreme I have currently are the 115gr RN. Have 5K Berry's 124gr left to load/sell then I can switch to Xtreme for that weight.

If you want to try some 115gr Xtreme, drop me a line by 3pm EST and I can get a box out to you.

#9 joecichlid

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 12:40 PM

Freakshow, thanks for the offer. Sadly thanks to a fussy DSL line (been storming in the area here) I didn't get your message in time. Right now 100 or so would be enough to do some testing, just let me know how much you would want and as soon as I get back into town I will get some funds out your way. Although I don't leave for a few weeks by the time my funds got to you and you shipped the bullets out I would be out of the country. lol Two weeks in Europe is eating a lot of my funds otherwise I would gladly buy a case and give them a try.

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#10 freakshow10mm

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 12:44 PM

Well, PM me your info and I can get it out tomorrow then. I'm heading off to my job right now. I can get them in the mail tomorrow morning.

#11 Akaboson

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:38 PM

I use Xtreme bullets exclusively in my Desert Eagle 44. They don't like fast burning powders in my D.E. They broke up when fired with IMR 4756 powder. And it was an average load. With W296, IMR 4227, 2400, they work great. Accuracy is good. IMR 4756 powder is actually too fast a powder for 44 magnum. In 357/9mm it should be okay. The D.E. doesn't like 'target' loads either. It needs the med/max load to power the slide function.
After about 2000 rounds, this is the only problem I've ever had with these bullets. And it was not a problem with the bullet itself.

#12 G-ManBart

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:55 PM

Freakshow, thanks for the offer. Sadly thanks to a fussy DSL line (been storming in the area here) I didn't get your message in time. Right now 100 or so would be enough to do some testing, just let me know how much you would want and as soon as I get back into town I will get some funds out your way. Although I don't leave for a few weeks by the time my funds got to you and you shipped the bullets out I would be out of the country. lol Two weeks in Europe is eating a lot of my funds otherwise I would gladly buy a case and give them a try.

Joe W.


Why bother? Right now X-Treme is charging $92/K shipped for the 115gr RN. Montana Gold 115gr CMJs are $77/K shipped if you buy a case of 4K....that's $15/K cheaper, for a better bullet. Precision Delta 115gr FMJs are $74/K, so $18/K cheaper. Chuck at SC has Zero 115gr FMJs in stock for $78/K....Angus at CZ Custom also has them at $78/K if you buy 3K. If you can't get a huge discount on X-Treme (or Berry's) the math just doesn't work. R,
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#13 freakshow10mm

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:12 AM

Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.

#14 G-ManBart

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 11:23 AM

Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.


First time I've seen anyone mention TJ's....good resource.

At only $2/K less than PD 115FMJs, those prices are still a ripoff. At our last match, a newbie (shooting Minor) what having almost 50% of his bullets keyhole (at every distance). I asked him what he was shooting, and it was a generic reload, can't recall the brand. The reloader/seller told him they were jacketed. I showed him that they were plated...they charged him as if they were jacketed and these prices are probably why. When I told him how much Atlanta Arms is charging for their reloads, with good Zero jacketed bullets (less than what he paid) he wasn't very happy :(

Edited by G-ManBart, 12 December 2010 - 11:24 AM.

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#15 lugnut

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 11:36 AM


Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.


First time I've seen anyone mention TJ's....good resource.

At only $2/K less than PD 115FMJs, those prices are still a ripoff. At our last match, a newbie (shooting Minor) what having almost 50% of his bullets keyhole (at every distance). I asked him what he was shooting, and it was a generic reload, can't recall the brand. The reloader/seller told him they were jacketed. I showed him that they were plated...they charged him as if they were jacketed and these prices are probably why. When I told him how much Atlanta Arms is charging for their reloads, with good Zero jacketed bullets (less than what he paid) he wasn't very happy :(


G-Man with all due respect this is anecdotal data at best. You can't possibly be implying the all sources of tumbling rounds are due to plated bullets- there are MANY variables. Recently I've been trying to help a friend determine why his MG loads are tumbling in his M&P. Now I've used Extreme and don't care to as I've been happy with Berrys. My point is that plated bullets can be great for many pistol loads. I'd take my Berry over and FMJ loads all day long... no exposed lead is only a plus IMO.

FWIW TJ is a great company to work with... fast as is MG.

EDIT: One other thing- I believe there are several companies that market their ammo as FMJ when in reality it's plated- CCI for one... they should be clearer.

Edited by lugnut, 12 December 2010 - 11:37 AM.

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#16 twodownzero

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 11:53 AM


Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.


First time I've seen anyone mention TJ's....good resource.

At only $2/K less than PD 115FMJs, those prices are still a ripoff. At our last match, a newbie (shooting Minor) what having almost 50% of his bullets keyhole (at every distance). I asked him what he was shooting, and it was a generic reload, can't recall the brand. The reloader/seller told him they were jacketed. I showed him that they were plated...they charged him as if they were jacketed and these prices are probably why. When I told him how much Atlanta Arms is charging for their reloads, with good Zero jacketed bullets (less than what he paid) he wasn't very happy :(


The moly 115 rn bullets I sell are $59 a thousand, which is over 20% cheaper than jacketed and you don't have to buy 4k at a time. If you buy 10k or more, they're $56.05 (5% discount) a thou and I ship them for free.

If you want to talk about ripoffs, jacketed AND plated have been a ripoff for a long time. I watch every single one of these threads and I wonder why people are still using jacketed bullets. Maybe they haven't heard of moly. Perhaps someone told them that moly doesn't run in their Glock (not true).

I still don't know why so many run jacketed bullets. They're a waste of money.

I have long agreed with you regarding the comparison between plated and jacketed. You're right...plated usually aren't as good, and if you're going to use plated, you might as well use jacketed.

But in 9mm, you're paying 20-25% more to use jacketed bullets instead of moly. In .40 and .45, the difference is even greater.

If I saw some advantage to jacketed bullets, I might use them in majors or indoors. But with the powders I use, the moly coated bullets don't smoke anyway, so I have seen little reason to switch from what I've been using for years.

Montana Gold is a great supporter of our sport and has been for a long time, and I'm glad they do that. That said, I don't know why people think jacketed is the only option. I can't imagine blasting jacketed bullets into a berm to practice. It's a waste.

Unless you're shooting open, you're wasting a huge amount of money using jacketed bullets when moly will do the same thing with no/minimal smoke, no leading, softer recoil, and 20-25% lower prices for the bullet.

Don't believe me? Compare $59 a thousand to whatever you're shooting now and do the math. I bet you'll be surprised at how much money you can save. The 147s are $63.50. MG 147 CMJ are nearly TWICE the price--$124 per thousand. Even at case price they're almost $81 a thou...plus shipping. Compare that to $61 a thou shipped for 10k at a time.

Shooters have been paying too much for bullets for a long time. It's not just the guys shooting plated bullets. Nearly everyone pays too much.

Edited by twodownzero, 12 December 2010 - 11:54 AM.

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#17 lugnut

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:07 PM

I have a friend that says moly bullets don't smoke... I hate practicing with him, especially indoors. Not sure what that cloud is but it looks like smoke to me. Not trying to zing twodownzero but from my experience they smoke.
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#18 twodownzero

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:13 PM

I have a friend that says moly bullets don't smoke... I hate practicing with him, especially indoors. Not sure what that cloud is but it looks like smoke to me. Not trying to zing twodownzero but from my experience they smoke.


All bullets smoke with the wrong powder. I've seen cast bullets smoke like a freight train, too.

I've shown this video on this forum many times. Watch it and tell me that my bullets smoke too much to shoot indoors:


Hopefully you conclude the same thing I have all along. Jacketed are a waste of money.

Edited by twodownzero, 12 December 2010 - 12:18 PM.

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#19 usmc1974

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:22 PM

Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.

+1 TJ Conevera's is where I get mine, and I only have to buy 1000 at a time to get this price. Berrys DS or Xtreme 115's I have found over crimping lead or plated bullets is a main cause of keyholing. my 9mm's I keep at .380

your milage may very.

Edited by usmc1974, 12 December 2010 - 12:32 PM.

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#20 freakshow10mm

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:36 PM


Xtreme Plated 115gr RN are $72/K shipped from TJ Conevera's. Ordering direct from Xtreme is for fools with money to waste.


First time I've seen anyone mention TJ's....good resource.

At only $2/K less than PD 115FMJs, those prices are still a ripoff. At our last match, a newbie (shooting Minor) what having almost 50% of his bullets keyhole (at every distance). I asked him what he was shooting, and it was a generic reload, can't recall the brand. The reloader/seller told him they were jacketed. I showed him that they were plated...they charged him as if they were jacketed and these prices are probably why. When I told him how much Atlanta Arms is charging for their reloads, with good Zero jacketed bullets (less than what he paid) he wasn't very happy :(

I've mentioned TJC before for Xtreme bullets. Xtreme is in a league of their own in the plated bullet market as their jacket is as thick as traditional cup and core jacketed bullets.

Regarding ammo pricing you have to remember Atlanta Arms uses Camdex machines and the reloader he bought them from probably just uses Dillon progressives. Quite a bit of difference when you are talking operational economies of scale. Just because they are reloads doesn't mean the price has to be cheaper or should be cheaper anyway.

Tumbling bullets could be one of many things.

#21 freakshow10mm

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:47 PM

EDIT: One other thing- I believe there are several companies that market their ammo as FMJ when in reality it's plated- CCI for one... they should be clearer.

Yup. Even the FMJ isn't very accurate description of the bullets. They aren't "full" metal jacket. They are partial metal jacket. Then total metal jacket is used instead for a completely encapsulated bullet. But total is not full, yet the definition of full has a totality. So really the full metal jacket isn't correct either.

But for my personal ammo, I cast a 130gr bullet out of wheel weights for $9.50/1,000ct.

#22 G-ManBart

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:03 PM

If you want to talk about ripoffs, jacketed AND plated have been a ripoff for a long time. I watch every single one of these threads and I wonder why people are still using jacketed bullets. Maybe they haven't heard of moly. Perhaps someone told them that moly doesn't run in their Glock (not true).

If I saw some advantage to jacketed bullets, I might use them in majors or indoors. But with the powders I use, the moly coated bullets don't smoke anyway, so I have seen little reason to switch from what I've been using for years.


You say yours don't smoke, but they do on the video you posted....about 100% more than I get with mine using jacketed bullets. Even putting smoke issues aside, I'm more concerned about accuracy, and I have yet to see a moly bullet that shoots as well, on average, as a good jacketed bullet. The very first load I tried in my Trojan, after having the barrel swapped, shot repeated 1.25" or smaller 5-shot groups at 23yds (just where the target was) with a Zero 180gr JHP (172PF)...and that was simply shooting off a barrel that has a thin piece of carpet on it...I'm sure with a good rest, it would do better.

Unfortunately, when I ask many people exactly what sort of accuracy they're getting out of their gun/ammo combination, few really know. Most have an answer like "oh, it'll do 2 or 3 inches at 25yds"....translated that means "I've never really shot groups with it, but when I shoot at a 15yd target, I can keep them all in the A-zone". I think know many of them would be surprised at the groups their setup is really capable of, and not in a good way.

Not to be mean, but for many folks it probably doesn't matter as they're slinging misses, no-shoots and Deltas left, right and center, but when I shoot a C, that's .25" from being an A, I want to know it was me, not my ammo/bullet choice. The lack of smoke, and gunk on the gun are just a bonus.

I know you've stated that you think both jacketed and plated bullet manufacturers are selling vastly overpriced products, but unless you've got some inside line as to what their operating expenses are, you really don't have any basis for that opinion. I've been buying bullets for almost 25 years now, and haven't seen a ridiculous increase in most component prices over that time....some jumps have been bigger than others, but on the whole, pretty consistent with inflation and other consumer goods. I remember $.99/gal regular back when primers cost me $10/K. Gas is $2.80 here and primers are about $25/K now...pretty similar.

The one exception to that is plate bullet prices. They've had major increases in prices the last couple of years. They used to be much more than just a couple of dollars per thousand cheaper than jacketed. R,

Edited by G-ManBart, 12 December 2010 - 03:04 PM.

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#23 GrumpyOne

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 03:25 PM



If you want to talk about ripoffs, jacketed AND plated have been a ripoff for a long time. I watch every single one of these threads and I wonder why people are still using jacketed bullets. Maybe they haven't heard of moly. Perhaps someone told them that moly doesn't run in their Glock (not true).

If I saw some advantage to jacketed bullets, I might use them in majors or indoors. But with the powders I use, the moly coated bullets don't smoke anyway, so I have seen little reason to switch from what I've been using for years.


You say yours don't smoke, but they do on the video you posted....about 100% more than I get with mine using jacketed bullets. Even putting smoke issues aside, I'm more concerned about accuracy, and I have yet to see a moly bullet that shoots as well, on average, as a good jacketed bullet. The very first load I tried in my Trojan, after having the barrel swapped, shot repeated 1.25" or smaller 5-shot groups at 23yds (just where the target was) with a Zero 180gr JHP (172PF)...and that was simply shooting off a barrel that has a thin piece of carpet on it...I'm sure with a good rest, it would do better.

Unfortunately, when I ask many people exactly what sort of accuracy they're getting out of their gun/ammo combination, few really know. Most have an answer like "oh, it'll do 2 or 3 inches at 25yds"....translated that means "I've never really shot groups with it, but when I shoot at a 15yd target, I can keep them all in the A-zone". I think know many of them would be surprised at the groups their setup is really capable of, and not in a good way.

Not to be mean, but for many folks it probably doesn't matter as they're slinging misses, no-shoots and Deltas left, right and center, but when I shoot a C, that's .25" from being an A, I want to know it was me, not my ammo/bullet choice. The lack of smoke, and gunk on the gun are just a bonus.

I know you've stated that you think both jacketed and plated bullet manufacturers are selling vastly overpriced products, but unless you've got some inside line as to what their operating expenses are, you really don't have any basis for that opinion. I've been buying bullets for almost 25 years now, and haven't seen a ridiculous increase in most component prices over that time....some jumps have been bigger than others, but on the whole, pretty consistent with inflation and other consumer goods. I remember $.99/gal regular back when primers cost me $10/K. Gas is $2.80 here and primers are about $25/K now...pretty similar.

The one exception to that is plate bullet prices. They've had major increases in prices the last couple of years. They used to be much more than just a couple of dollars per thousand cheaper than jacketed. R,

Simple way to put it, you get what you pay for. I will pay more for a better quality product (better as in accuracy).


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#24 twodownzero

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 04:07 PM

I respectfully disagree with you on both counts, Chris, for two reasons:

1. I do not believe that jacketed bullets are, on the whole, more accurate than any type of cast bullets. I find it hard to believe that this could ever be the case when comparing quality cast bullets to jacketed. Every gun is different, but if I were asked to plunk down my money, I'd put the money on the cast bullet every time. Jacketed bullets have reached a level of manufacture that would probably have been unheard of just a few decades ago, and especially in rifle bullets at a quarter a piece, you can buy some pretty darn accurate jacketed bullets. That said, I think what every jacketed bullet manufacturer seeks is to equal the accuracy of a cast bullet, especially in a pistol. Your experience may be different, and theory does not always translate to reality, but in theory, a cast bullet should be more consistent and more accurate than any jacketed bullet. If your experience is different, I'd be interested to see your results, and I'd be even more interested in a scientific explanation as to why that'd be the case. I'm not saying you're wrong--you very well might be right on this. Theory would suggest otherwise, but theory doesn't put holes in targets.

2. The cost of production is irrelevant to what I'm willing to pay. Types of bullets are what economists call "substitutes." No, they're not perfect substitutes, and that has to be taken into consideration, and on that point, I agree with you. That said, for myself, and many of the shooters I see and meet, I cannot fathom how they could justify practicing with bullets that, at minimum, cost 1/5 more. That means 1/5 less practice, 1/5 fewer matches, and 1/5 less time behind the gun.

I'd love to see accuracy testing of moly bullets and see where the real numbers end up. I am confident that they will perform comparably with cast and jacketed bullets.

If I can find a video of someone else shooting the same stage with jacketed bullets, I'll provide it. I didn't upload it to youtube or I'd post it. I do think when you see that there's no realistic difference in smoke indoors, you'll conclude, as I have, that whatever smoke there is, it's not going to impair your match performance, especially not outside. I have considered using jacketed bullets for certain circumstances many times. Every time I've compared the dollars, though, it just doesn't make sense. More ammo means more shooting, and more shooting means more progress when it comes to my skills.

On the "C 1/4" away from the A zone" argument, my response is that the A zone is 6x11 inches. I know my load will hit the A-zone every time at any distance we'd find in a match. I'd put my money on it. And if you're good enough to put a bullet 1/4" into the C zone at 50 yards, you're good enough to move it into the A zone. That one point isn't going to make or break your match performance, either. There's a lot of things we work on to try to get more points and get faster in this sport, but I don't think that's among them.

I'd also bet on there being zero difference in "gunk" in your gun, and if any difference in smoke, so minimal that it'd not be worthy of discussion.

Paying more for something doesn't mean you get more. It does mean, with probability 1, that you pay more.

I'm not asking you to switch, either. I just think everybody should look critically at what they're loading and shooting because none of us have limitless resources, and for those of us who shoot a lot, ammo is the most expensive thing we buy for this sport. There's no magic bullet that is going to improve your shooting overnight. More of them probably will, though, and that's what this is about.

I resisted posting my first post and I'm really resisting posting a followup because I know you're confrontational on this forum, and so am I, and I'd rather keep the clashes off the forum and in PMs. That said, I think this is a discussion that this forum should have had a long time ago. Jacketed bullets are expensive. There are alternatives. They don't smoke like a freight train. They ARE cheaper, and available. If they're not for you, then so be it. But it seems like there's a whole lot of shooters out there who want to save money on bullets. Often, they try to do so by buying plated bullets. You're usually the first to point out to them why that's a bad decision, and I agree with you--the cost savings don't add up to much with plated. But they do with moly! And that's why I wanted to post this, even though I knew, before I did, that you wouldn't agree with me. That's fine. If we all agreed, we wouldn't need a forum...we'd be authors for a gun magazine instead.
Tim
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#25 tunakilla

tunakilla

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 05:02 PM

Moly bullets can be a great alternative, but only testing will determine if it is a suitable alternative. For some that 1/4 inch may be important, shooting with a guy like Jojo Vidanes he will take the shot even if the dot is really close to the No-shoot or edge of the popper because of the accuracy of his bullet/load, the key is Testing. In the early 90's I used moly because of the cost of Jacketed and that brand grouped really well. Smoke isn't really as big an issue for me. Before Moly we used a Cast lead bullet that would Smoke a whole lot, funny back then when I switched to Jacket I still had Mikes..........

Our source for those Moly bullets disappeared after about a year and there was no replacement. Today the Moly that I have available to me locally (So Cal) has not grouped well in MY major guns, For my Steel Challenge loads they actually grouped Better that the 115 jacket(not mentioning brand)I thought would be great, but not as good as the jacketed bullet we ended up using. They do lead the comp bad but we started to spray Dillon case lube in the comp between stages and that helped alot.

I will be testing Twodown's black bullets and Hope that the results are positive. Norco Running Gun has matches every Saturday so the ammo cost of 4 matches a month (6 Stages) plus match Fees is really high.
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