130 replies to this topic

[eric nielsen]

Stumbled on this looking for a jpg of a target:

http://nextleveltraining.com/index.php

No idea of the price when it comes out. Not 100% sold on the idea of using it.

I suppose IF you could force yourself to stay on sights for shots outside of 10 yards - but - still 'notice' the bright light feedback somewhere in the vicinity of your top-center front sight... maybe.

I'd have to go right back to my real gun and cardboard-in-slide dryfire mode - often.

[The Antichrome]

I won a certificate for one of these at Double Tap (yes, I did send the company a nice thank you note)
It hasnt arrived yet, but I'll post a review when it does.
Retail price is $399, lots of people walked right by it on the prize table.

[COMATZD]

I won a certificate for one of these at Double Tap too. And Mike Hughes (the president) and Yong Lee were on the same squad as I was. The way the system was described, it sounds very cool.

They were getting production spooled up, I can't wait to get mine.

[Corey]

Hmmm, they look interesting. i do wonder how much attention would be pulled off the sights and onto the target. seems like it could force a habit of looking for hits instead of calling the shots

[eric nielsen]

There's a bunch of videos under the Training tab on that website.

Some of it makes for good training no matter what play gun, real gun you have. Especially if you could just turn it off, do a dry-fire run, call the sites each shot, then do an identical run with the laser on - that might show you something you didn't know was going on.

In the past I've strapped a cheap laser to my iron-sight gun and there's definitely an opportunity for un-reality to set in. For several reasons it can be more idiot-proof to improve your hold and trigger control by using a regular red-dot sight. The laser/irons combination can end up being a sci-fi video-game that doesn't carry over to match shooting at all.

[Micah]

I won a certificate for one of these at Double Tap too. And Mike Hughes (the president) and Yong Lee were on the same squad as I was. The way the system was described, it sounds very cool.

They were getting production spooled up, I can't wait to get mine.

I was wondering if the creators knew what they were talking about when I took a look at the website. Often times I see information on training websites written by clueless people. Not the case here, which is refreshing.

Hell...I'd like to see a writeup from a member here!

[WARDOG]

Due to hard limitations imposed to us shooter in EU (Italy), i.e. number of rounds, lack of shooting ranges etc. I PRAY that this thing will be exported here, we all would benefit immensely if the tool is really similar to a glock (reset, pretravel, sights, weight etc.).

[COMATZD]

Due to hard limitations imposed to us shooter in EU (Italy), i.e. number of rounds, lack of shooting ranges etc. I PRAY that this thing will be exported here, we all would benefit immensely if the tool is really similar to a glock (reset, pretravel, sights, weight etc.).

I don't regularly shoot a glock, but having handled one of the prototypes I'd say its very close. The trigger group is very adjustable for pretravel, pull weight, and overtravel. The unit looks just like a glock and takes glock mags, so it should be excellent for dry fire.

I shoot open with an STI, but I'm excited to try mine out.

[Aldrin]

Hmmm, they look interesting. i do wonder how much attention would be pulled off the sights and onto the target. seems like it could force a habit of looking for hits instead of calling the shots

That's what I'd be worried about too.

[sfpmb]

Hmmm, they look interesting. i do wonder how much attention would be pulled off the sights and onto the target. seems like it could force a habit of looking for hits instead of calling the shots

That's what I'd be worried about too.

These guys brought this out and showed people at the Idaho glock match last weekend. It looked cool and I can see valid applications for LE training and trouble shooting new shooters (ie flinch, hold, quick transitions). But I think these last scenarios are better if you have someone else watch the light and not the shooter. I think it is unlikely that these shooters are saying "during shooting you should look at the target not the sights". I think this is coaching based and probably very effective. It will be shown whether it is effective for calling the shot type of training with your eyes on the sights. I would not turn it away if it was given to me for sure.

[BrknCylncr]

Got one on order. It'll be shipping around the second week of May. Here's what was sent to me in an email:

"Here is some information about the SIRT Training Pistol™:

1. The MSRP is $399.00

2. The law enforcement and military price is $339.00 (15% discount)

3. Other discounts are available for volume orders.

We are currently taking orders for early May delivery. I can take your order directly. All you need to do is reply to this email with your order information, or you can call me and I will take your order information over the phone.

Currently we have one pistol model, which has adopted the functional properties of a Glock™ 17/22. The package includes:

1. One training pistol

2. Standard Glock™ sights

3. One weighted magazine

4. One carry case

5. Choice of slide color: black, red or natural steel (clear coat)"


Hope this helps!

V

[Mike Hughes]

Thank you for all your comments and feedback. I thought I should give a little bit of background on the SIRT Training Pistol.

Background:
I am Mike Hughes of NextLevel Traning and the idea of the SIRT Training Pistol first came after USPSA nationals in 2008, when I was talking with Rodney May and we were discussing training shooting on the move. Rodney told me about how he puts a laser on the rail of his Sig and a pressure switch behind the trigger. I tried this, but with a striker fired gun (not a double/single), it didn't work very well.

So, I bought an auto resetting Glockmeister trigger, took out the barrel and JB Welded a laser in the slide and soldered the red laser leads to the resetting trigger to make a switch. This turned out to be the first “proof of concept” SIRT. Initially this gun was just for training shooting on the move; however, over the following 3 or 4 months, I naturally started to use this gun for all my dry firing.

Going Full Bore:
After showing this initial gun to a few key people who I respect greatly in the shooting community, I was hit with strong encouragement to try to take the pistol to the next level. We made a ton of improvements from the proof of concept including a powerful green shot laser, red laser trigger take up indicator, fully adjustable trigger, etc.

Really the key element I found, is to get a higher volume of training with higher feedback to insure quality of movement. For example, to get a higher volume of trigger pulls, on the range I shoot one set of an array of steel live fire and then do 4 to 5 sets drive fire with the SIRT Training Pistol. This regimen allows me to get a higher number of repetitions by working more on draws, reloads, presentations, target transitions and most of all… trigger control. Then I can integrate these skill sets with recoil management with my live fire pistol.

Trigger Control!
After a lot of use with the first SIRT and seeing a few hundred people with it, I found that there is a room for improvement there is on trigger mechanics for shooters across the board. The ugly mirror of a comet tail sweep of the green laser ruthlessly exposes when I am using bad trigger mechanics. Michael Bane, really nailed the analysis in his online audio show at http://www.downrange.tv/blog/?p=1474 at 42:36.

Anyhow, the whole reason we came up with the design, was to get more training.
The SIRT is just another tool in the toolbox. I don't think that a SIRT should displace live fire at all, but personally I felt I needed to get more reps just like a basket ball player always needs more freethrow practice.

Again I appreciate any comments and feedback. Feel free to give me a shout anytime at (360) 933-4640 Ext 204.

[The Antichrome]

I won a certificate for one of these at Double Tap (yes, I did send the company a nice thank you note)
It hasnt arrived yet, but I'll post a review when it does.
Retail price is $399, lots of people walked right by it on the prize table.

Couple-o-months later and I still havent received mine yet:-(

[Aloha Robert]

They had some for dispaly at Area One and I got chance to 'light/fire" one. It's a terrific trainer, The laser is really clear and easy to see unlike some other types can be hard to see or are allways on. Its one of best training devices I have seen (without ammo). Seems well built and roboust. Always that wonder in back of you mind will elecstronics will hold up but Mike Hughes who is head of compnay, mechanical engineer and pattent attorney says he is confident he can control quality.

Sum it up, great trainer, self resetttin trigger and extremly accurate laser feedback. Looks like a winner. I think they have plans to introduce their systems in other platforms, different service pistol and an AR version. Look like another great tool for production shooters to get a LOT better.

[Maks_H]

Doesn't seem practical to me, because it can happen fast that you start looking for a laser impact instead of sights. The best training solution would be to have some application with camera that would shows you hits at the and of COF.
Overall idea is great, just keep up developing it!

Edited by Maks_H, 16 July 2010 - 01:53 AM.

[The Antichrome]

I won a certificate for one of these at Double Tap (yes, I did send the company a nice thank you note)
It hasnt arrived yet, but I'll post a review when it does.
Retail price is $399, lots of people walked right by it on the prize table.

Couple-o-months later and I still havent received mine yet:-(

4 months later and I still dont have mine...

[COMATZD]

Email them. I got mine a couple weeks ago. Now I need a holster to practice some draws.

[The Antichrome]

Email them. I got mine a couple weeks ago. Now I need a holster to practice some draws.

I did, still no news.

[vluc]

Try calling. I called Monday and ordered one, had it here Wednesday.

Impressive little piece.

[Aristotle]

Doesn't seem practical to me, because it can happen fast that you start looking for a laser impact instead of sights. The best training solution would be to have some application with camera that would shows you hits at the and of COF.
Overall idea is great, just keep up developing it!

Actually, what it is teaching, and something that took me over two years to learn from shooting open divison, which I am now taking advantage of and making great improvement on with my iron sighted pistol is, to maintain a target focus now.. with iron sights.

I shoot with Yong Lee regularly, almost every weekend. And one of the key things he has emphasized to me is how I should maintain a target focus, EVEN with iron sights. Yeah, I know, it goes against most everything that's been posted or even written. Proof is in the pudding, you just don't take what he says for granted.

These guys developing the training gun are not just some book worm, fly by night inventors, they know their stuff. This was made by top flight shooters, for shooters. If you've ever seen Mike's training regime, it's almost unbelievable and legendary. The name of his company is so well thought out, and fitting.

I got to play around with the SIRT pistol, and it is very well made, and I believe it would make a huge impact to anyone's training that is committed to getting better. I'm excited to see what platforms they come out with next. Even if you aren't sold on the pistol, the weighted magazines are pretty trick and would make an awesome tool for dry fire/reload practice.

[Joe4d]

Somewhere there is a barrel insert that does the same thing, comes with a couple edifferent size o rings to fit the normal calibers, it sticks out the barrel and can be zeroed, the laser reacts to the sound of your hammer falling and gives a short laser flash. Works well for trigger control drills and for instructors, a round dot on target good trigger, a slash on target equals jerking. D.R. Middlebrooke used them in many of his classes going back at least 10 years.

[vluc]

I have now dry fire/trained with the SIRT several times a day since getting it Wednesday - not a lot of days, I know, but hear me out. I df'd for 15 minutes this morning while in between getting ready for work. I can tell you unequivocally that this is a major change for me. I have been doing reloads for the last several months, incorporating some other dry fire techniques, but not religiously as I was focusing on reloads.

Despite the cardboard in the barrel hood trick to allow continuous trigger pulls on my Glock, I find dry fire boring as I am not getting enough feedback. It looks like I am on target, but I see instances of a lack of visual patience at some actual matches. This thing makes me WANT to DF!

I now KNOW where that shot is with the SIRT. Yesterday while playing with it, I ID'd my weak hand problem, just by having something that gives me that visual feedback as to what I am doing wrong. Previous df work made me think I was OK, but weak hand stages continued to be problematic. It was a eureka moment when I saw what I saw.

May not be everyone's cup of tea, but I have no desire to buy an airsoft and go through the setup in my garage to capture pellets, gather them up, etc. If I can grab the SIRT, catch an additional 15 minutes in a busy morning for a session of DF on reduced scale df targets, I feel I am coming out ahead. Aside from the adjustable mag that comes with it, it also accommodates my current practice magazines loaded with dummy rounds, so I have 8 full magazines to now practice reloads with.

Add to the fact it feels, looks, weighs and handles like my Glock...and with the coming replacement of its stock sights with my competition sights, it will be almost indistinguishable from my Glock

Edited by vluc, 23 July 2010 - 07:28 AM.

[Mike Hughes]

Hi Antichrome,
Hey sorry if you did not get your SIRT yet. I am having someone check into that asap. Could you give me a call and we will get it to you right away. Again sorry for any delay. Mike Hughes

[Mike Hughes]

Hello fellow Shooters, I have been reviewing the posts and I appreciate the thoughtful comments. One theme I see reoccurring is the issue of becoming target focused. I totally understand the logic and it is a keen observation, but let me tell you why I don't become target focused when training with my SIRT, and I am a front sight shooter.

By way of background, I first made the first model (proof of concept) only to train shooting on the move. However, over the following 3 months I gravitated to using the tool for all my dry firing, in particular my dry firing while hitting cardio (3mph 12% grade on the treadmill). Anyhow, what I found was that inside, when I was not on my sights and not doing my job on the trigger control, I would throw mikes (misses). When upgrading to a green laser (20x brighter), the laser was so bright outside that it was very easy to identify hits (and misses) while maintaining my 22.5 inch right eye focus. In fact when I get lazy and not have sufficient awareness on the sights I would start throwing mikes and have to get back on the sights to make the shot (and have TRIGGER CONTROL!). In fact, I viscerally found myself getting more awareness to the sights after a miss. This has been confirmed with many trainers where for example we shoot some resetting steel live at 10-20 yrds, then do 4-5 sets with the SIRT. If we are not on the sights hard core we will throw mikes and that damn green laser does not lie. There is an issue of students 'walking in shots' where with each trigger pull they walk the shot in. I have seen this in live fire at close targets, but with free trigger pulls it is a potential issue. But hey, any tool can be abused, this is why we really want trainers to remedy poor training and push the message to new shooters of of proper pistolcraft. Only allowing one shot per target is one way to remedy an novice shooter walking in shots.

Anyhow, it took me 3 months to figure out these things with the SIRT and I made the darn tool; a lot of firearms trainers are lot smarter than me and get it after about 5 minutes when playing with it. I have found that shooters that don't shoot with both eyes open have had an issue if the laser impact is not above the sight picture, in particular when transitioning to close targets. The green dot should be above sight picture, if the SIRT is in, for example, a team room that has limited range, then the green laser should be adjusted slightly vertical.

Regarding the red take up laser, does it make a shooter target focused?:
The take up laser can make a shooter shift to the target. Some instructors like this (threat focused arena). I personally use the take up indicator when training shooting on the move (to see what the muzzle is doing during the entire sequence) and high speed wide angle target transitions. For transitions, I want to see exactly how that muzzle is coming into target in a critically damped manner and make sure I am coming into the target with the trigger fully prepped.
Anyhow, I have played with putting the red laser about a 2 feet below the line of sight of the target (at about 10yrds) so there is a visual indication of what the muzzle is doing (seen buy the non dominant eye) but not distracting to the dominant eye. We are in design of the laser caps that will diverge the beam into a large circle, cross hair with the middle missing, etc. A trainer could adjust the laser so at a given target distance so the red take up laser will be at a specific point on the target below the designated center target. That way the trainer will know if the shooter had sight alignment when prepping, but the shooter can not use the red laser as a sighting aid. I have not done this exercise yet but it would be a good drill to set up.

Anyhow, again thank you all for investing the time in looking at the product and commenting. The goal of the SIRT Training Pistol is to ultra-conveniently allow for more training of fundamental skill sets and then hit the range and put them to work with recoil management. Higher volume of training with ensured quality of movement. I look at it as another another tool in the toolbox to promote training for any shooting level. Feel free to give me a shout anytime. Mike Hughes 360 933-4640.

[eric nielsen]

thanks for all the replies people. asked some simple questions then got more detail & honest answers than i would've ever expected.

nice to see a new product make its own niche and sell on its own merits without bashing a competitor, blaming a customer, or any of the other nonsense we've seen too much of already.