24 replies to this topic

[XRe]

I've discovered a potentially dangerous condition with the CR Speed holster. It takes a certain set of circumstances that may not apply to you - if it does, though, you may want to consider either discontinuing use of the holster, or modifying your holster to prevent the issue (more on that in a moment).

The problem: if you have a relatively short trigger (mine is equivalent to an SV ITS with a short/flat profile - some folks run shorter than this, too), and you draw through the lock (that is, the holster is locked, but you pull the gun out anyway) and you somehow manage to take the safety off at the same time, the holster can discharge your handgun!!!

I have seen the hole a foot in front of my right foot, and then recreated it with an empty gun to prove it - in fact, have done it with two different guns using the same trigger profile. Here's how it happens....

- when the holster is locked, it takes a lot of force to draw the gun through the lock. After the muzzle clears the "nipple" on the muzzle platform, that force actually causes the holster to lift away from the body to some degree. This tends to be exacerbated if you're not expecting to be drawing through the lock (like, if you lock the holster, and then forget to remove it)
- as the holster is pulled out away from the body, the right, upper part of the holster that normally blocks access to the trigger is pressed into the trigger guard
- with a medium or longer profile trigger (tried it with a stock STI curve trigger, which is roughly equal to an SV ITS medium curve), the holster body contacts the side of the trigger, and goes no further
- however, with a shorter trigger, the rolled edge of the holster body contacts the front edge of the trigger and presses the trigger rearward
- if you are also in the habit of taking the safety off when you make your grip (bad mojo!), or the force of drawing through the lock (especially when you're not expecting it) causes your thumb to press the safety off (as happened to me)..... your holster is now pushing the trigger rearward on a gun with the safety off!!! BOOOM.

Luckily, this also seems to require a small amount of forward muzzle rotation, which tends to put the muzzle pointing slightly more away from your body, but.... AT BEST, you're going home. At worst, you're visiting the morgue....

I don't know if this holds true for the left handed version of the holster, or not.

We were able to resolve it with a belt sander - basically, we removed the rounded, beveled edge on the inside of the holster, and set the edge back some. This in no way reduces the holster's ability to protect the trigger while holstered, and does not affect the draw at all. It seems to prevent most contact between the holster body and the trigger, and when it does make contact, it does not move the trigger (no rounded edge to roll against). You have to really bend the holster body to get it to make contact at all. Here's what the mod looks like:

 Photo.jpg   36.55K   280 downloads


You can see the shelf on the right side, just above the lock in the holster. We used a belt sander - but you can get the same effect with a file. I wouldn't go Dremel on this one, but you might be braver than me. The key is, you want sharp angles, not nice beveled edges - otherwise, you're only reducing the issue. I don't make any guarantee that this will totally resolve any potential issues - your mileage may and probably will vary - use (or don't use) at your own risk. However, with my trigger profile, I cannot reproduce the problem with this modification to the holster.

And... before someone goes there.... No, my index finger was no where near the trigger... and certainly was not on the trigger when the issue was reproduced with a dry gun both at normal speed and at very slow motion.

For the record, I think the holster is a solid piece of gear - this is one issue that I don't think the manufacturer thought of, and as short triggers are not as common as medium or long ones, and people tend to blame the guy on the gun when one lights off in the dirt in front of them and not the gear, this may have simply gone overlooked for a long time...

[Jman]

Scary s#it.

I'm going to try a duplicate this with my (empty) G35. The trigger sits back compared to stock.

[Jadeslade]

I have drawn on my C R Speed when I forgot to unlock it. Al I got was a dislocated shoulder. I'll have to check this out.

[Matt Cheely]

Scary s#it.

I'm going to try a duplicate this with my (empty) G35. The trigger sits back compared to stock.

Unless your G34 has a single action trigger with 20 thou of takeup, I'm sure you're safe.

[Chris Keen]

I have drawn on my C R Speed when I forgot to unlock it. Al I got was a dislocated shoulder. I'll have to check this out.

If you can't draw through the lock on a CR holster, you're not trying hard enough. It ain't that difficult.

I had no idea it could trip your trigger, but the ability to draw the gun when the lock was engaged is exactly why I got rid of the one CR SPEED holster I got in a trade deal.

Scary scary stuff Dave.

[XRe]

Unless your G34 has a single action trigger with 20 thou of takeup, I'm sure you're safe.

I was thinking the same thing...

[Jman]

Unless your G34 has a single action trigger with 20 thou of takeup, I'm sure you're safe.

I was thinking the same thing...

Good.

Still, I'm going to verify.

[Jadeslade]

I have drawn on my C R Speed when I forgot to unlock it. Al I got was a dislocated shoulder. I'll have to check this out.

If you can't draw through the lock on a CR holster, you're not trying hard enough. It ain't that difficult.

I had no idea it could trip your trigger, but the ability to draw the gun when the lock was engaged is exactly why I got rid of the one CR SPEED holster I got in a trade deal.

Scary scary stuff Dave.

So I should try harder?. I bought mine new.

[Jimdoe]

Definitely some scary $#%T. I'm using a CR Speed holster and with a short flat trigger on my edge. I remember one time when I was dry firing and somehow I got sidetrack and had to do something. Then continue on dry firing but I forgot to unlock the holster but yet was able to draw my gun out. I can't remember if the hammer went down or not. I guess I'm gonna have to check it out as soon as I get home later. Thanks for the info XRE.

Edited by Jimdoe, 13 April 2010 - 07:33 AM.

[diehli]

This might actually be worth checking on all C&L S/A guns in all race holsters, since all race holsters interact primarily with the trigger guard for retention.

[XRe]

Definitely some scary $#%T. I'm using a CR Speed holster and with a short flat trigger on my edge. I remember one time when I was dry firing and somehow I got sidetrack and had to do something. Then continue on dry firing but I forgot to unlock the holster but yet was able to draw my gun out. I can't remember if the hammer went down or not. I guess I'm gonna have to check it out as soon as I get home later. Thanks for the info XRE.

It doesn't happen every time... It's a strange thing, in the end. Also, the hammer may end up at the half-cock notch rather than falling all the way. I had that happen at the 2008 Nationals - tried to reproduce the issue about 20 times in the safe area, and couldn't. Triple checked the gun itself, too, and no issues. But when I reproduced it dry this weekend, I got it to drop to half cock a couple of times, and drop all the way a couple of times.

One way you can exaggerate the issue is to pull the gun slightly away from your body, and allow the muzzle to cant forward slightly while you're pulling the gun through the lock. This increases the chances it will happen. You can also take the holster off, put the (EMPTY) gun in, apply the lock, then cock and unlock, pull the gun out just enough to get the muzzle off the platform, then cant the gun up and slowly angle it to the left (simulating the holster pulling away from the body). Realize there's a lot of force involved when you pull through the lock, so you may have to apply a good amount of pressure. If your trigger moves at all when the holster body makes contact with it, you have the issue - that movement will get exaggerated when you pull the gun through for real, and Mr. Murphy will tell you that it will happen with the gun live...

Be careful...

[Jimdoe]

David, I tried simulating (empty gun of course) what you had said but could not get the gun to fail. I tried it with the holster on and off but still can't get the failure result. Before I move on I just want to let you know that I don't use the nipple platform. I have the one that sort of like a cup where the entire muzzle/slide/frame goes into. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but just like you said to pull the muzzle off the platform which I was still able to do and manipulate and yet no failure result.

Could the weight of the trigger be a factor? I don't know how heavy or light my trigger is but it's definitely not a 4 to 5 pounder. I guess I just need to keep in mind and be aware of this mishap. I hate to get rid of this holster because it is lightning speed, the holster it is, the user needs more practice and time to get to that level .

Edited by Jimdoe, 14 April 2010 - 09:33 AM.

[XRe]

Jim, I see you'll be at Space City - I'll be showing up Saturday afternoon, hopefully before everyone is done shooting. I'd be happy to check it out w/ you in a safe area. It's hard to describe how to reproduce in text, but it's easy to show in person.

"Gauge of the trigger"? You mean the trigger pull weight? That could have something to do with it in terms of the absolute force required to move and break the trigger, but we're talking about a pretty big force - I'm not sure any reasonable trigger pull weight would save you from this condition if you have it. That said, mine is breaking at 1.5#, with a good amount of middle leg (so I have a pretty good amount of takeup force on the trigger - probably half the pull weight). Just FWIW...

[ChuckS]

As long as we are discussing this, I though I would point out a similar discussion in the past about the Ghost: http://www.brianenos...84

Later,
Chuck

[Jimdoe]

Jim, I see you'll be at Space City - I'll be showing up Saturday afternoon, hopefully before everyone is done shooting. I'd be happy to check it out w/ you in a safe area. It's hard to describe how to reproduce in text, but it's easy to show in person.

"Gauge of the trigger"? You mean the trigger pull weight? That could have something to do with it in terms of the absolute force required to move and break the trigger, but we're talking about a pretty big force - I'm not sure any reasonable trigger pull weight would save you from this condition if you have it. That said, mine is breaking at 1.5#, with a good amount of middle leg (so I have a pretty good amount of takeup force on the trigger - probably half the pull weight). Just FWIW...

I know it's hard sometimes to explain things in writing. I'm squaded with squad 6 in Space City, so if you can show me that would be great.

Yea I meant to say the weight of the trigger, but either way it still need some pressure/force for it to go off. I will just to keep in mind to keep safety on until the gun leaves the holster. Better safe than sorry.

Dave.. btw are you gonna be bringing any practice deck this weekend? Let me know. Thanks.

[XRe]

Dave.. btw are you gonna be bringing any practice deck this weekend? Let me know. Thanks.

Will definitely have some with me

[Jimdoe]

As long as we are discussing this, I though I would point out a similar discussion in the past about the Ghost: http://www.brianenos...84

Later,
Chuck

And I was gonna use my ghost as a backup. I know it only applies to rounded trigger guards but the thought of this happening is scary. I'll give mine a test later on "just in case".

[ogiebb]

had that happen to me with my CZ and Cr Speed almost 3 years ago...it put a hole in the ground 10 inches away from my right foot

after that i learned to take the safety off when im on the target (the right way)...

Edited by ogiebb, 14 April 2010 - 12:44 PM.

[Extremo]

Yesterday it happend to a friend with a CZ. I was timing him so my feet were no more than 20 inches away.
Good reminder that the safety stays on until the barrel points down range.

[MoNsTeR]

...don't draw through the lock? There's no reason to ever do so on a CR Speed, so I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

[waktasz]

Those holsters have always looked like a kid's toy to me. No way I'd use one.

[Pat Harrison]

I was just able to replicate what you are talking about. However I had RO get the pistol on such a radical agle to get it to happen I do t think it's realistic. I don't take the safety off until just before my two hands meet so it's unlikely I'll ever see this happen. I suspect any holster could have something similar happen if you try hard enough.

[1911aow]

I have been using the various models of the CR Speed holster since 1996, and being from South Africa where the holster is made, have had the opportunity to witness many hundreds of these holsters being used in comopetition and training, and have NEVER witnessed the alleged dangerous problem.

Last nite I dug a couple of older CR Speed holsters and my current holster from the holster box. I tried to replicate the "problem" with the various holsters set-up for the following firearms: Glock 17, Cz75, SVI 2011 and 2 x 1911's and a Beretta 92FS.

Even with the lock engaged and thus drawing the pistol through the locking mechanism, I could not replicate the "incident" with anything that I would call a realistic draw. I even tried the CZ and Beretta with the triggers in single action mode and still could not get it to happen.

I agree with Pat that the incident mentioned could possibly happen by manipulating the pistol at an extreme and un-natural angle in the holster and by applying enough force against both pistol and holster. The angle and force applied would however in my opinion be at such an akward and unnatural position that I cannot for the life of me realistically see it ever happening during any draw ever seen at a match or controlled enviroment. In my mind this would be the same as trying to holster the firearm with your finger on the trigger while holstering....

What I have however seen is that certain competitors try to walk the ragged edge of safety and try to take shortcuts by setting up the holster incorrectly in trying to achieve a faster draw etc. Any piece of equipment incorrectly setup or used is a liability and that goes for the gun, mags, ammo, your car or your lawnmower for that matter. Couple this with incorrect technique while drawing, such as disengaging the thumb safety while the gun is still in the holster, and accidents can and will happen with ANY holster.

To prevent an incident like this the following rules apply to ANY AND ALL holsters:
1. Ensure that the holster is setup correctly for your spesific firearm and its intended use,
2. Utilise the correct draw technique and safety procedures during the drawing motion.


Personally I have found the CR Speed holster to be a solid and reliable piece of equipment and I am sure that the great many well respected and well known champions such as 5-time World IPSC Champion, Eric Graufel will agree. Just my 0.2c's.

Edited by 1911aow, 06 June 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[merlinpta]

I have been shooting IPSC competitively since 1990, I was one of the few guys that started using the CR speed holsters when they where launched. I have used all the different models of the CR speed from the Original Model “A” up to the current version Model WSM II “World Shoot Model 2”.

I have used different type of handguns in the holsters from Para Ordnance, STI, Star 30M, Vektor Ultra Sport, Star BM, Berretta 92, Tanfoglio Gold Custom as well as Colt 1911A.
All these handguns have different trigger setups as well as different trigger guards. I have not been able to replicate the incident as described using any of CR speed holsters that I own.

Lets first look at the locking mechanism: The locking mechanism on the CR Speed is designed as an easy “flick on flick off locking system” so even when we do get a bit of brain fade on the range and the holster is setup correctly, you will still be able to draw the handgun thru locking system. This is how the holster was designed.

Every single CR Speed holster comes equipped with additional spacers as well as trigger clips to ensure that the holster can be setup correctly for the type of handgun that is being used. If the instructions that is provided in the box is followed and the holster is correctly setup for the handgun that is being used it will be very nearly imposable to discharge the handgun in the holster without either twisting or tilting the handgun at extreme angles.

On reading the post of “Xre” I have tried to duplicate the scenario but up to now have not been able to do so.

What I would like to inquirer is, what is the current setup of the holster as well as have any modifications been done to the holster? This is before the incident.

First rule of safety in the draw “Do not Disengage the safety” of the handgun while the handgun is still in the holster. I personally only disengage the safety once my hands meet up in front of my body for freestyle and or on strong hand when the handgun is pointing down range.

DVC Guys,

Enjoy the shooting.

[Reshoot]

...don't draw through the lock? There's no reason to ever do so on a CR Speed, so I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

EXACTLY!! I dunno, perhaps I am missing something here. I hear the "make ready", unlock my holster and load the gun. When I put the gun back in the holster I never, ever lock it again. And, I have never, ever drawn from a locked holster.

During my dry fire drills, my thumb and index finger go to the lock instinctively the moment I step into the shooting box.

MY CR Speed WSM II is a great tool. Hell, I can make the lap / shoulder belt in my truck dangerous if I use it improperly!

Edited by Reshoot, 16 June 2012 - 05:17 AM.