20 replies to this topic

[dmshozer1]

You drop a mag during a course of fire. You pick it up and fire a shot before you store it. 3 second penalty!
You drop a mag,you pick it up and store it before you fire the next shot, no penalty! That is the way I remember it.
Page 39,IDPA rule book says if you "dislodge" a mag, 3 second penalty! Does that mean that even if you pick it up,
it is still a penalty? Sounds it.
I have a big match that I am going to be a S0 and I want to be sure!
Thanks

[steel1212]

If you dislodge a mag then your mag carrier was not tight enough, theoretically. That is why they have to pass the upside down test.

[Gregg K]

You drop a mag during a course of fire. You pick it up and fire a shot before you store it. 3 second penalty!
You drop a mag,you pick it up and store it before you fire the next shot, no penalty! That is the way I remember it.
Page 39,IDPA rule book says if you "dislodge" a mag, 3 second penalty! Does that mean that even if you pick it up,
it is still a penalty? Sounds it.
I have a big match that I am going to be a S0 and I want to be sure!
Thanks

You are correct on both counts, if a mag is dislodged from your carrier it's a 3 second penalty no matter what. The only reason to stop and pick it up is if you need it to finish the COF.

[Jane]

You drop a mag during a course of fire. You pick it up and fire a shot before you store it. 3 second penalty!
You drop a mag,you pick it up and store it before you fire the next shot, no penalty! That is the way I remember it.
Page 39,IDPA rule book says if you "dislodge" a mag, 3 second penalty! Does that mean that even if you pick it up,
it is still a penalty? Sounds it.
I have a big match that I am going to be a S0 and I want to be sure!
Thanks

You are correct on both counts, if a mag is dislodged from your carrier it's a 3 second penalty no matter what. The only reason to stop and pick it up is if you need it to finish the COF.

Two clarifications from IDPA on this:

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/2077

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/2079

[Duane Thomas]

Thanks, Jane.

[Steve Koski]

As I understand it:

1) Drop a mag from the pouch while not reloading:
Yes PE even if you pick it up.

2) Drop the "third mag" while reloading (any type of reload):
If you don't leave the position, no PE.
If you leave the position without the magazine, Yes PE.

3) Drop the partial mag during a RWR or tac load:
Fire a shot before picking mag up and stowing properly, Yes PE.

4) Drop a magazine when clearing a malfunction
No PE. Can leave it behind, fire additional shots, etc. without penalty.



(Edited to add the malfunction clearance exception)

Edited by Steve Koski, 15 February 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[Chris Christian]

Jane,
I was unable to access the links you provided for the rules update regarding dropped magazines. As an IDPA SO I would like to have that information, but I seem to be denied it via the Yuku system. Is that an official IDPA site?
If not, is there an official IDPA site that I could access to see those rules clarifications?
Thanks,
Chris Christian A23489 SO

[Chris Christian]

Koski has it nailed, as I understand it. But, one factor not mentioned, as I understand it is... if an ammo reloading device ( magazine or speedloader) malfunctions during a reloading attempt then that malfunctioning device... and any ammo in it... can be discarded and not picked up, without penalty. Should a malfunction occur, the shooter is then free to drop magazine, clear revolver chambers, without having to pick those rounds up, and may run a new ammo loading device into the gun without a penalty for failing to pick up the rounds/magazine involved in the malfunction. At least, that's what I glean from the Rule Book. But, I'm not privy to the latest Yuku rulings, so the Rule Book (as printed and in effect) is what I would have to go by when SOing a match.
Chris Christian

[freeidaho]

Jane,
I was unable to access the links you provided for the rules update regarding dropped magazines. As an IDPA SO I would like to have that information, but I seem to be denied it via the Yuku system. Is that an official IDPA site?
If not, is there an official IDPA site that I could access to see those rules clarifications?
Thanks,
Chris Christian A23489 SO

Chris,
The IDPAForum is open to the public for reading. You should be able to access those clarifications at any time

Any member in good standing can post there. But you knew all this already.

kr

Edited by freeidaho, 15 February 2010 - 03:24 PM.

[Chris Christian]

Ken,
Thanks for that bit of info. But, I am still unable to access it. And, I still have the question as to (1) is this an IDPA official site for rules clarfications that SOs (my being one) need to follow? (2) If not, why pay attention to it as opposed to the printed Rule Book that every IDPA member receives.... which do you follow? Any info on those two questions would be appreciated. Thanks!
Chris Christian A23489 Certified SO

[Boats]

Steve Here's one not covered,

Carolina cup there was a gun & mag in the drawer stage. Retrieve the gun and mag, move to low cover I knocked it on the ground when taking a knee, Stopped and looked at the RSO who gave the nod to pick it up. Our club bending over to pick something up off the ground while holding the loaded pistol is a DQ. We allow dropping empty mags and loaded mags if dropped while clearing malfunctions. Loaded mag dropped out of the mag holder is a Procedural, picking mags up off the ground is forbidden until the gun has been cleared and re-holstered under the RSO's instruction. I always assumed a fumbled mag during tac reload dropped on the ground was to be left lying and draws a procedural.

Whats the call ?

Boats

[Chris Christian]

Boats,
As I understand it... a fumbled mag dropped onto the ground during a reload could be picked up beore a shot is fired, without a penalty. If your club has a rule on dropped mags that contradicts this it is not in accordance with the IDPA rule book. If a malfuction during a reload occurs(from page 41 Rule Book.. second para down from top of page) MALFUNCTION CLEARING EXCEPTION: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty".
That, of course, is from the printed Rule Book that every member gets. Don't know what the non-official web sites say about that.
Chris Christian

[Steve Koski]

Boats,

Since nobody was reloading when the mag was dropped, you get a PE.

You certainly can drop a mag during a tac load/RWR, pick it back up, and not get a PE. However, at your range you may not get the PE, but get DQ'd due to your local range rules. Probably not a good trade off with a local rule like that.

Koski

[freeidaho]

Ken,
Thanks for that bit of info. But, I am still unable to access it. And, I still have the question as to (1) is this an IDPA official site for rules clarfications that SOs (my being one) need to follow? (2) If not, why pay attention to it as opposed to the printed Rule Book that every IDPA member receives.... which do you follow? Any info on those two questions would be appreciated. Thanks!
Chris Christian A23489 Certified SO

Chris,
You frequented and posted a whole lot on the IDPAForum before you abruptly stopped. So I am not quite sure why you are playing dumb.

Ken Reed

Edited by freeidaho, 15 February 2010 - 03:30 PM.

[Chris Christian]

Ken,
Not playing dumb at all. I am unable to currently access that site, despite my best efforts. My questions to you still remain for you to answer (1) Is this an official IDPA site that overrides the printed Rule Book?, and (2) If not, why would anyone pay attention to it? Your response is eagerly awaited, and since you are a Moderator on this site I would assume I could get an accurate answer to those two simple questions. Thanks!
Chris Christian

[freeidaho]

Ken,
Not playing dumb at all. I am unable to currently access that site, despite my best efforts. My questions to you still remain for you to answer (1) Is this an official IDPA site that overrides the printed Rule Book?, and (2) If not, why would anyone pay attention to it? Your response is eagerly awaited, and since you are a Moderator on this site I would assume I could get an accurate answer to those two simple questions. Thanks!
Chris Christian

Chris,
You and I both know it is a game, and I will play up to a point. You know as well as anyone that there is no official IDPA rules clarification site... yet. For some reason you are getting joy out of seeing that statement in print. These games you are playing are why people tire of IDPA discussions.

It seems logical to me that using the latest clarifications on the rulebook is a good thing, no matter the sport. A better question would be, if someone knows of a location that has the latest clarifications on a sport to explain what the founder of the sport meant when the rulebook was written, why wouldn't they go there. Maybe they have some hidden agenda, dunno

It is free, it is public, and it is easy to find. I know of no one else that has trouble accessing this site. Do you know of a reason why you are having trouble with this one site?

kr

Edited by freeidaho, 15 February 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[sirveyr]

Chris, here are the links that Jane posted. I hope they help answer your question. BTW, IDPA has no site that overrides the printed Rule Book. Also, we all know that the IDPA rulebook is very "open to interpretation", therefore, the site serves the purpose of relaying some of the clarified answers to some of the rule questions sent to IDPA HQ. It is no more of an "official IDPA" site than this forum is the "official USPSA" site. They are both for informational purposes and fun banter about the sport, but you knew that anyway...

Link #1

Dropping Magazines Clarification

I am the match director for both the XXX club and the XXXX club here in the XXXarea.

Following a discussion by multiple "senior" SO's with Regional, State and National SO experience, there seems to be a need for a rule clarification from IDPA.

The clarification concerns "dropped ammo/magazine".

Here is the scenario: Stage three, string 1 of the Classification Match. Shooter is suppose to draw and fire 2 rounds at T1-T3 around one side of a barricade, do a Tactical Reload and fire 2 shots at T1-T3 from the opposite side of barricade.

While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt. IS THIS A PROCEDURAL ERROR? Is the shooter allowed to utilize all allowed magazines or must he retrieve and utilize only the magazine he started the reload with?

1) some senior SO's feel that a PE should be assessed because the Rule Book on page 16 states " The competitor fails to retain ammo when a tac-load/RWR is specified". Their point is that this does not state that ONLY the ammo coming out of the gun must be retained, but that ALL ammo used during the reload must be retained. This is a valid point and the rule book would seem to indicate a PE is required. Page 41 under approved IDPA reloads would also indicate that a PE should be assessed as it states "Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a tactical reload or reload with retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload will incur a PE". Live rounds are on the ground and this would indicate that all live ammunition was not properly stowed prior to the first shot.

2) Some senior SO's feel that a fumbled magazine is indeed a malfunction and thus under the rule book, page 41, "when clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty". The magazine did not charge the weapon properly, and thus there was a malfunction, either mental or physical. The term "malfunction" does not specify that it must be a mechanical malfunction and thus a mental malfunction could be applied. Thus no PE would be assessed.

3) Some senior SO's feel that ANYTIME A MAGAZINE OR SPEEDLOADER that is loaded hits the ground, unless the shooter is clearing a malfunction, a PE is assessed. They utilize the Rule Book, page 16, "n. Anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dropped from the carrier during a course of fire" a PE is assessed. Thus they would give a PE.

4) Other Senior SO's feel that the Rule Book, page 39, under ammunition Carrier Notes applies here: "1. a three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF", and thus a PE is assessed because the magazine did fall to the ground or was dislodged.

5) Other Senior SO's feel that using the same page 39, and with the same rule "1. a three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind, and thus a PE would not be assessed. The shooter did drop a magazine during a reload, and did not leave the ammo behind.....and thus NO PE .

5 examples of the Rule Book can apply. 3 would give the PE because of the wording, two would not because of the wording. All can be equally argued as correct according to the current wording in the IDPA rulebook, each depending on the position one wants to take and the section of the rules that one wants to quote.

It is my understanding that the rule book implies that if a mag falls during the shooters running, kneeling, laying down, etc that the carrier did not retain the mag correctly and a PE would be assessed.

It is my understanding that the rule book implies that if a shooter fumbles a reload and drops a magazine, the shooter can utilize the other magazine allowed by the rules and does not have to retrieve the fallen ammo before firing to finish the CoF as long as the shooter remains at that shooting position. If the shooter does have to move to another position, the shooter would have to retrieve the fallen ammo prior to moving/leaving cover or be assessed a PE for leaving ammo behind.

It is my understanding that in the case of the CoF in the Classifier indicated above (or any other similar CoF), the shooter can rightly state that the rule book clearly indicates that 1) dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind. The shooter dropped a loaded device (allowed by this rule) and did not leave the shooting position (allowed by this rule). Thus a shooter may utilize all ammo allowed by the rules, that if a ammo carrier is dropped during a reload that the shooter has the options of picking up the fallen ammo and charging the weapon with it, or leaving it on the ground and charging the weapon with the additional ammo carrier without a PE being assessed AS LONG AS THE SHOOTER DOES NOT LEAVE THAT SHOOTING POSITION.

Unfortunately, there are several areas in the rule book that can equally be sited (as indicated above) that clearly state that a PE must be assessed. My position is clearly not the only CORRECT position, and thus the need for clarification by IDPA Headquarters.

Your help in this matter would be appreciated. SO's here in the Houston area work hard to know and understand the rules so that we can call things correctly and according to the rules in all matches, be it Local, Regional, State, or Nationals. This clarification will assist us in doing our jobs better and represent IDPA in a manner that is fair and consistent with the rules of IDPA.

Yours,
XXXX

Mr. Newton,

There are really three separate parts to this question.

Using the example of the classifier. If the shooter is making a RWR or tac-load and drops the partially charged magazine he must pick it up before firing his first shot as per the rule book on page 41. Failure to do so would result in a procedural. The ammo specified that must be retained is the ammo coming out of the gun. It has to be picked up or else you will have shooters going OOPS, I dropped it and essentially doing a speed reload.

Using the same example of the classifier. If the shooter does a RWR and properly stows a partial magazine then while drawing the full magazine drops it, he may go to his belt for another magazine with out incurring a procedural. He has not left that position of cover and there for not left ammo behind. That being said, if a shooter moves to another position he/she must pick up the magazine. This is covered in the rule book on page 39. Ammunition carrier notes: 1. A three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind. The first part of that rule is referring to moving through a CoF and knocking out a loaded ammunition feeding device, either by yourself or against a prop, but not while reloading. The second part refers to dropping a magazine while reloading.

The last is partially covered above. If a shooter is moving through a CoF and by any action, other than reloading, dislodges a loaded ammunition feeding device and it falls out of the carrier then he/she will receive a procedural regardless if they pick it up. This is also covered under page 39 Ammunition carrier notes: 1. A three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind.

You are correct in your understanding of the rules in this regard. I hope that this letter helps define the rules a little better for you and your fellow SOs and I will notate this for possible clarification in future issues if the rule book.


Thank you,
Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association

Link #2

Dropping Magazines Out of Magazine Pouches

This has been changed and clarified further.


Question

-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXX
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 4: 25 PM
To: dru(at)idpa.com
Subject: rule clarification



Hi Dru,
Hope things are well.
A question - paragraph n on page 16 gives a procedural for a dropped magazine. Should the procedural still be given even if the shooter stops and picks up the magazine?
TIA,
XXXX

XXXX,



I did misread your question. I answered your question without looking at the rulebook. This is something I normally dont do specifically for this reason.



When I read your email, I was thinking that you were referring to dropping a magazine while reloading. In that instance, you certainly can pick up your magazine without a penalty. However, N. was specifically written to make us use practical ammunition carriers. If a magazine drops from the carrier, a procedural penalty is assessed regardless.



Sorry for the confusion.



Dru Nichols

Administrative Coordinator

IDPA


I took the name of the asker out as it is not pertinent and I changed dru's email addy so spammers wouldn't get a hold of it.
-Ted

[Chris Christian]

Ken,
Thanks for clearing that up, i.e... IDPA Forum not an official site. As a SO who runs two squads/matches a month I try to be as keenly aware of the rules as I can. Since the IDPA Forum (as you have finally acknowledged) is not an official rules site, I now know that... regardless of the question... I need go to the printed Rule Book that lives in my range bag. I'm sure that the IDPA Forum is well intentioned, but unless it officially supercedes the printed Rule Book that every member receives... and more importently... supercides it in a manner that every member can access... (I still can't gain access, even as a SO)... the printed Rule Book has to be the Bible. I'm not a lawyer, but I can only imagine what might occur if a shooter traveling to a Sanctioned Match spent time, entry fee, travel expenses (motels, restaurants fuel or airline fares, etc) and abided fully by the Rule Book... only to be DQed because of a blog entry on a non-official web site. WHEW!... talk about a fine civil suit!
So... Ken,... thanks for alerting people that the IDPA Forum is a nice place to visit, but is not an official rules site.
Chris Christian

[ima45dv8]

Chris & Ken: I don't understand the tension between you two over interpretations and where they may or may not be posted. And I am not looking for clarifications on it, so don't bother posting them here. Allow me and everyone else to remain blissfully ignorant of the particulars.



There's a PM function available to both of you if you desire to continue that discussion. This isn't the place for it.

[Chris Christian]

You are correct.... my apologies to the forum. I'm done on this thread.
Chris Christian

[waktasz]

The IDPA forum is an unofficial place to post official responses from someone who works for IDPA...the same way people post rule clarifications here in the USPSA section that they receive as email replies from USPSA HQ. The IDPA forum posts are clarifications, not rule changes. There's no reason to avoid them or act like reading them would get you into trouble at a sanctioned match.