[Shoot-4-Ever]

I found a good buy on 9mm Rainier 124 flat pt. plated bullets. The purchase was basically the old price in todays market so I now have thousands (I have a problem passing up a good buy).

Have searched my loading manuals and several sources I have collected over the years, can't find much of anything for Bullseye, Unique, or any of the Alliant's or 231. These are the powders I have plenty on hand and would like to find something in the 1200 f/s area to try in my CZ 75. I find many comments of tumbling and seperations with this bullet. I have read of over 1300 f/s with no problems and read of 1200 f/s with flyers, keyhole and separations.

I have loaded a few Rainier round pt. in 115 gr, still looking for the perfect combo in my CZ.
I am using the loads for practice mostly at steel plates and other light reactive targets. I want something comfortable and fun to shoot.

Has anyone a source of printed data that would help me, or even some home brew ideas that are well tested and safe for this use?

Also interested in OAL data that is working good for you in a 75b.

The 9mm and the 75b are both new to me, still in the learning stages (9mm) so any comments and suggestions would be helpful. I have loaded for revolver for many years without a chrono, I have one now and hopefully I can test fire a few 9's at a time to reach my goal.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I have no familiarity with Rainier bullets,
but I would think that 4.0 grains of WW231
would be a good place to start loaded out
to about 1.10" OAL.

I'm using 4.3 grains to make 1100 fps with
a 115 grain lead bullet - start at 4.0 and work
up to where you have accuracy and feel
comfortable.

Not sure why you'd want to go to 1200 fps'
with a 125 grain bullet (that's PF 145 or so).

For steel, I'd stay around 1050 fps.

[Shoot-4-Ever]

Hi-Power Jack - Thanks for the posting.

The reason I went with 1200 f/s is because of the reading I had found, often they mention problems starting about 1200 f/s. So I wanted to stay well below that mark. However, on the highest end, I found some who were shooting above 1300 using the Rainier or Barry's plated bullets. I don't shoot competition so I stay away from the Power Factor requirements etc.
I am a low end shooter and stay away from the full house loads (even when hunting).

Do you find the 231 to be the best powder?

Another item that has me puzzled. In one of my manuals, it list jacketed bullets at 0.357" and possibly 0.358" Don't hold my feet to the fire on these numbers (I don't have the book here), but I think that is what they published. There were some footnotes about this size, but am almost certain it didn't list any 0.355 which I thought would be common for copper.

I was easily talked into the 9mm because it is so popular and well favored by many. Mostly because the componets are plentiful and ea$y on the wallet.
Looks like I have plenty to learn about the 9mm charts and methods to reloading.

All help welcomed

[bompa]

You could check the powder makers web site,most all will give loading data..
Generally plated bullets use data for lead bullets..Shoot them at a mild velocity and don't over crimp and
all should be well..I would load them as long as your barrel and mags allow..

[Wideload]

I can't help you with the powders you mentioned but can relay my past experience with the Rainier 9MM FPs as I've been using Tite group for 9s.

Load them a little short. About 1.1 in or so. When I loaded them longer, they would not feed reliably or consistently in either a Glock or a CZ. As a guide, compare your FPs to a Round nose bullet and note their shapes and where they come into contact with the feed ramp.

Bell out your case more than you would with a true jacketed bullet.

Barely taper crimp. Just enough that they cycle in your gun. What you want to avoid is over crimping and ripping into the jacket.
Use cast lead data as a guide for starting out.

Also why 1200 fps? You need only go 1088 fps to get PF of 135.

Hope this helps.

This post has been edited by Wideload: 14 September 2008 - 06:42 PM

[lugnut]

I use W231 and like it. I use Berrys 124gr bullets (very similar to your Rainier) with 4.5gr W231. I get just about 1100 ft/sec with that load from my G34. The lowest I went was 4.2gr W231 which was an average of about 1025 ft/sec with the same bullets.

[adouglas]

I'm fairly new to reloading, so bear that in mind. This is information I've gained from doing exactly what you're doing....asking around on the net. Plus a few things I've learned on my own.....

AFAIK if you load Rainiers too hot the plating will come off. This may be the source of what you've seen regarding separation.

These are not jacketed bullets...they're plated, and Rainier tells you to use the load data for equivalent lead bullets.

http://www.rainierba...om/loaddata.htm

I've read in many places that you should stick to midrange loads at most. 1200, 1300 seems WAY hot for a plated bullet to me, but I'm a relative newbie.

I don't know about flat points, but for 124 RNs I'm using 4.0 of HP-38 (which is identical to 231...compare published data to confirm this) with an OAL of 1.125. The OAL for flat points will probably be less because of the different shape. Here's why I say that:

I learned a few things about OAL from loading cast lead bullets. The first batch of lead RNs I used had a shoulder on them, which made figuring out the seating depth easy...just seat so the edge of the shoulder shows, and you're done. That turned out to be 1.130.

But the second batch had no shoulder and were a different shape...more rounded, less pointed, so the parallel sides of the bullet extended farther forward on the bullet body. Loading these to 1.130, I was having feed and stuck cartridge problems. Turns out the bullet was engaging the rifling before the cartridge was fully seated. In some cases the slide could force the bullet in and it'd work but sometimes they wouldn't feed fully....AND they'd get stuck in the barrel. The depth that finally worked with these bullets was all the way down at 1.09, and even at that, one of my pistols still has difficulty with it (normal variation in chamber dimension).

If you look at the bullet profiles on the Rainier website you'll see that your FPs have sides that extend much farther forward than those on the RNs. This is why I speculate that you may have to have a shorter OAL.

If you can't find any data at all for this bullet shape in lead, then I'd suggest starting with a case length that is clearly too long and checking the fit in your gun's barrel by dropping the round into the chamber. It won't drop in all the way initially. Then gradually reduce the OAL until it plunks into place easily. That will be the maximum possible length for your gun and that bullet. As long as you're over SAAMI minimum, you ought to be okay... but....

Another thing I've heard is that you have to be careful with 9mm, especially when loading it hot, to avoid seating too deeply. The case volume is so small that pressures will go WAY up if you seat a little bit too deep. In other words, there isn't much margin for error in a case that small.

y'all be careful out there....

[wisconsin]

If you call Rainier they will give load data for the bullet/powder your using. Just ask for Phillis she is great to deal with. 1-800-638-8722

[Duane Thomas]

The plating on Rainier bullets is not nearly as thick as a true bullet jacket. If I remember correctly - I did an article on Rainier bullets a few years ago - the company doesn't recommend driving most of their bullets over 1,000 fps. The exception in 9mm is the 121-gr. RN they build for .38 Supers which has a much thicker plating, and that's always what I used in 9mm - with excellent results BTW.

[nick m]

Rainer 124 gr flat pt. .355" is the bullet I use for my 357 sig load. I use 7.0 gr of Power Pistol... I worked down from 8.0 grains (whups!) of PP. 8.0 gr was pushing the bullet well past 1200 and they were tumbling/keyholing. don't push 'em too hard.

I am aware that my sig load isn't relevant, but I wanted to give a first hand on plate separation and accuracy.

-nick

[Shoot-4-Ever]

I guess I am gun shy, I went to setup for the 134 Flat Pt. and when I could not find anything certain for a 124 FP, I decided to keep looking for more info. I think the OAL is where I am not sure. I read that the 9mm is very narrow as far as range of depth due to such little room in cartridge for powder, giving pressures that are pushing the danger area if not careful. I sure would hate to curl the steel or sever thy finger...or have to pound out a stuck wad of lead!!! As Nick said.....Whups.....!

As I look at data in my manuals, they have cast lead listed but are their mfg. castings that they make, so either too heavy or pointed or whatever. I tried to make a reasonable gusstimate at the OAL, I could not come up with what I thought was comfortable. I decided to use BullsEye and it does not allow for alot of error.

I did a Google and found what (I think) is exactly what I want, I printed the 8 plus pages and will read it later. It's an old chart from about 3 years ago, and from what I believe is a very reliable source (however, I called them and they won't comment on it today...too many dang lawyers).

There are some new forum post here that I had not read until now, I like the info & ideas they gave even if it's not exactly what I need. If I can call Rainier on Monday (talk to Phyl. as suggested) and if she will talk to me, I will be very happy.......SO, THANKS to everyone who is helping me here, and YES, 1200 f/s is much faster than I need, but I didn't know for sure when I first posted. Looks like about 1000 f/s +/- shoud be what I need.

Another fact I found today is that several shooters like the 124 Flat better than the round nose. They found them perfect for their sig. loads.

As usual, anyone who has more to post, I will be thankful for your comments.

There will be a day, I believe, when I can help someone with their problems.

Don't forget to Register and/or VOTE ....... I believe this may be the best year NOT to sit home on yr butt on election day. Get out to VOTE and take friend with you!!!

[Shoot-4-Ever]

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Wisconsin >>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<< <<<<<<

That was the best tip I have had in a long time. I dialed that number....and well I guess you would know,.... She was Very happy to assist. Super Customer Service.

Thanks 4 the Great advise, got all the info I needed!




.

[LarryP]

4 WHAT ITS WORTH...

IN ARIZONA AT SEA LEVEL AND AT 1200 FT. IN THE SUMMER I USE 3.9 BULLSEYE AND NOW LOADING FOR FALL, 4.1 BULLSEYE.

BULLET IS 124 GR FRONTIER COPPER PLATED ( SMALL FLAT NOSE) , OAL 1.122, OUT OF A G34.

POWER FACTOR JUST BARELY OVER 125, BUT NO FT'S, RUNS SMOOTH, NO HIC UPS.

[wisconsin]

Shoot-4-Ever, on Oct 3 2008, 11:03 PM, said:

............................





Wisconsin >>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<< <<<<<<

That was the best tip I have had in a long time. I dialed that number....and well I guess you would know,.... She was Very happy to assist. Super Customer Service.

Thanks 4 the Great advise, got all the info I needed!




.

Glad to hear it. She is pleasure to talk and laugh with. Very helpful. Best of luck with your reloads.

[LPatterson]

I did not have good luck with Rainier in my .45 so I haven't tried them in 9MM.

In my XD9 using 4.2 W231 with Winchester cases WSP primers @ 1.130 I get an average of 1041FPS with a Zero 125gr FMJ and 1037 with a 124gr Precision Delta.